Is the bus situation becoming critical? (Read 3,948 times)

[simonk82701]

With around 7 days notice, minus a couple of school runs service 18 Doncaster has effectively been withdrawn after Saturday, and cancelled completely later in the summer.  We also have multiple cancelations most days with Stagecoach East midlands and First Sheffield. Whilst I totally accept that drivers cannot be magicked out of the air, shouldn't resources be shared out properly. For example why do First cancel a service 27 or 29 that only runs hourly and yet they run 120's every few minutes, even with some of them cancelled? 

Although service 18 is mostly covered by the service 10, the earliest you can get into Doncaster is 8:50am. Should the traffic commissioner have allowed such a short notice change? Personally I think not. Should Stagecoach be allowed to operate a contract for the Commonwealth games, a great financial reward for them, whilst the average paying passenger is stranded at bus stops because there are no drivers to run services. 

The bus situation is in my view in complete crisis, and the regulator and Sypte don't seem to be sticking up for us hard pressed passengers. I thought companies had to give a minimum notice period of 45 days to withdraw or change a service. Not 7. The other day because of driver shortages, SEM cancelled the final two service 99's from Doncaster to Retford with around an hours notice. Good luck getting home from work if you live in one of the villages.

Is it time resources were fairly allocated and poor traffic control decisions financially punished? It has been shocking recently, and the larger companies should know better. By the way, I am fully aware of the poor wages drives get for the work they do, and am not surprised a lot of them have had enough! Maybe pay them a decent overtime rate. After all we are so short of drivers companies must be saving quite a  bit in wages.

Any ideas as to have the passenger can regain some control over this shocking mess? I know there is a "new normal" but the traveling public will have very little left at this rate. 
   

    

[duncan]

Jun 3, 2022 11:46:57 GMT simonk82701 said:

With around 7 days notice, minus a couple of school runs service 18 Doncaster has effectively been withdrawn after Saturday, and cancelled completely later in the summer.  We also have multiple cancelations most days with Stagecoach East midlands and First Sheffield. Whilst I totally accept that drivers cannot be magicked out of the air, shouldn't resources be shared out properly. For example why do First cancel a service 27 or 29 that only runs hourly and yet they run 120's every few minutes, even with some of them cancelled? 

Although service 18 is mostly covered by the service 10, the earliest you can get into Doncaster is 8:50am. Should the traffic commissioner have allowed such a short notice change? Personally I think not. Should Stagecoach be allowed to operate a contract for the Commonwealth games, a great financial reward for them, whilst the average paying passenger is stranded at bus stops because there are no drivers to run services. 

The bus situation is in my view in complete crisis, and the regulator and Sypte don't seem to be sticking up for us hard pressed passengers. I thought companies had to give a minimum notice period of 45 days to withdraw or change a service. Not 7. The other day because of driver shortages, SEM cancelled the final two service 99's from Doncaster to Retford with around an hours notice. Good luck getting home from work if you live in one of the villages.

Is it time resources were fairly allocated and poor traffic control decisions financially punished? It has been shocking recently, and the larger companies should know better. By the way, I am fully aware of the poor wages drives get for the work they do, and am not surprised a lot of them have had enough! Maybe pay them a decent overtime rate. After all we are so short of drivers companies must be saving quite a  bit in wages.

Any ideas as to have the passenger can regain some control over this shocking mess? I know there is a "new normal" but the traveling public will have very little left at this rate. 
   

    

There is a facility where an operator can make changes at short notice but need the support of the local authority or PTE to be allowed to use it.
In the case of the 18, the operator would probably argue that if they continued to run it at a loss as a result of a competitor running in front and undermining the service they may not be able to fulfil their tendered service obligations to areas with less or no alternatives.

Do you honestly think the wages are the reason staff are leaving in droves?

[simonk82701]

A lot of drivers I know have done their HGV training. Which in some cases has meant an increase in pay upto 50 percent. That coupled with general conditions is I think why we are so short of drivers.

[The Captain]

120s every few minutes, I think not.
Bus operators need to be financially punished for not running trips or routes because they have no staff?, why are we still on a Saturday timetable?, why have the big operators cut back fleet pvr?, why does the PTE not replace damaged bus shelters or clean the existing ones?.
Why did the government turn down 571 million pounds worth of funding for South Yorkshire?.
When your already running at a loss and theres no funding, and you can't replace staff leaving then you are going to chop the dead wood out.

[The Captain]

Jun 3, 2022 14:40:53 GMT simonk82701 said:

A lot of drivers I know have done their HGV training. Which in some cases has meant an increase in pay upto 50 percent. That coupled with general conditions is I think why we are so short of drivers.

And they come back when they are spending too much time away from home, it's not about pay.

[simonk82701]

Jun 3, 2022 22:57:09 GMT The Captain said:

Jun 3, 2022 14:40:53 GMT simonk82701 said:

A lot of drivers I know have done their HGV training. Which in some cases has meant an increase in pay upto 50 percent. That coupled with general conditions is I think why we are so short of drivers.

And they come back when they are spending too much time away from home, it's not about pay.

What do you think it is then, general conditions or just a labour shortage because of the general demand for workers? One thing is for sure I have never seen it as bad as this  

[duncan]

Jun 4, 2022 7:31:53 GMT simonk82701 said:

Jun 3, 2022 22:57:09 GMT The Captain said:

And they come back when they are spending too much time away from home, it's not about pay.

What do you think it is then, general conditions or just a labour shortage because of the general demand for workers? One thing is for sure I have never seen it as bad as this  

Next time you are on a bus have a good look at the way people inter act with the driver, I mean a real CLOSE look. Multiply that by the amount of passengers they meet up with. Then when they get back to the depot they are often treated the same way by management and supervisors. There is more and more technology involved in bus operation that if used correctly would be a help to drivers and passengers but instead is being used as another stick to beat staff with. I voluntarily gave up my PCV licence last year and have no intention of getting it back. The bus companies are working flat out to recruit new staff but old staff are leaving at a faster rate. There has never been a time in the bus industry where staff retention was as bad as it is now and I dont see it changing any time soon. The bus companies are fire fighting and losing. Gone are the days when staff would stay for life and be loyal to a company and have that loyalty returned. Over the last 20 or so years the bus industry has "dumbed down" services, fares and facilities to make them understandable to people who are basically dimwits leaving normal people bemused by their actions. There is now a load of passengers who think the bus, the driver, and any other passengers are all there to serve them and are of no consequence to that person, just background and of no importance. I lay the biggest part of the blame for this with PTE's who have political agendas and despite their stated aim of making things better for passengers are only interested in making things better for themselves and winning votes for their political masters. With further powers heading in the direction of local politicians things will only get worse. They want to give us more buses ( no mention of where the drivers will come from) Better buses, (no mention of where the funding will come from) and cheaper fares ( so no funding from there then).

Yes the bus industry is on its knees, and local politicians will make sure it never gets up. Use and enjoy your bus while its there. The future does not look good.

[The Captain]

Jun 3, 2022 22:57:09 GMT The Captain said:

Jun 3, 2022 14:40:53 GMT simonk82701 said:

A lot of drivers I know have done their HGV training. Which in some cases has meant an increase in pay upto 50 percent. That coupled with general conditions is I think why we are so short of drivers.

And they come back when they are spending too much time away from home, it's not about pay.

Duncans pretty much covered it, but when your out there it's pretty much like going into a warzone.
You've got other road users pulling out on you, doing illegal turns, last minute braking, sitting in bus stops or abusing bus only priorities, not letting you out from stops, you sit at Meadowhead roundabout trying to get out and cars are coming round across the 4 lanes not indicating and there's no chance of pulling out sensibly so you have to go for the next gap regardless and your driving a bus where the torque converter doesn't engage so it goes to second gear then realises we are on the move so goes back to first and slows right down in the middle of all these lanes giving a huge heave down the bus making passengers tut and the greenroad systems flashing yellow at you and none of its your fault.
You set off from Ranmoor at Schooltime and by the the third stop you are standing full, by the Hallam shire there's enough passengers waiting to fill another 2 buses but your on your own, the one 6 minutes in front is missing be it staff or breakdown, your getting a mouthful off the out patients but the NHS staff are like us in the public eye so they are a bit more resigned to waiting for the next couple to come along. By time you get to Castle St you have emptied quite a bit and there's plenty of seats before you hit Haymarket but those stood on Angel St give you the dirty looks oh look another half empty 120 every 2 minutes, they don't see the carnage up by the hospitals and universities, and it's identical on the 52s, students-that's another story but it can take forever loading them because they don't scan their cards properly and pull the tickets before it cuts and pull the roll down the bus jamming the machine.
You get to Westfield and you've got off road motorbikes playing chicken with you, kids throwing anything they can at you or trying to jump on the roof from the over bridges, get to Halfway and your quiet 5 minutes evaporates because the Trams not running again and intending passengers are asking all the questions and going through which day tickets they can use.
Imagine multiple prams on or waiting to get on at Schooltime and despite being diplomatic and letting as many as you can get on, those that can't resort to the usual vulgar name calling and complaining, you can't please everyone....

Staff finish shifts burnt out or full of rage, not nice for families taking it home.

[simonk82701]

Jun 4, 2022 10:44:57 GMT The Captain said:

Jun 3, 2022 22:57:09 GMT The Captain said:

And they come back when they are spending too much time away from home, it's not about pay.

Duncans pretty much covered it, but when your out there it's pretty much like going into a warzone.
You've got other road users pulling out on you, doing illegal turns, last minute braking, sitting in bus stops or abusing bus only priorities, not letting you out from stops, you sit at Meadowhead roundabout trying to get out and cars are coming round across the 4 lanes not indicating and there's no chance of pulling out sensibly so you have to go for the next gap regardless and your driving a bus where the torque converter doesn't engage so it goes to second gear then realises we are on the move so goes back to first and slows right down in the middle of all these lanes giving a huge heave down the bus making passengers tut and the greenroad systems flashing yellow at you and none of its your fault.
You set off from Ranmoor at Schooltime and by the the third stop you are standing full, by the Hallam shire there's enough passengers waiting to fill another 2 buses but your on your own, the one 6 minutes in front is missing be it staff or breakdown, your getting a mouthful off the out patients but the NHS staff are like us in the public eye so they are a bit more resigned to waiting for the next couple to come along. By time you get to Castle St you have emptied quite a bit and there's plenty of seats before you hit Haymarket but those stood on Angel St give you the dirty looks oh look another half empty 120 every 2 minutes, they don't see the carnage up by the hospitals and universities, and it's identical on the 52s, students-that's another story but it can take forever loading them because they don't scan their cards properly and pull the tickets before it cuts and pull the roll down the bus jamming the machine.
You get to Westfield and you've got off road motorbikes playing chicken with you, kids throwing anything they can at you or trying to jump on the roof from the over bridges, get to Halfway and your quiet 5 minutes evaporates because the Trams not running again and intending passengers are asking all the questions and going through which day tickets they can use.
Imagine multiple prams on or waiting to get on at Schooltime and despite being diplomatic and letting as many as you can get on, those that can't resort to the usual vulgar name calling and complaining, you can't please everyone....

Staff finish shifts burnt out or full of rage, not nice for families taking it home.

I have seen this situation with the 120's and 52/a in particular. There is no way a driver should be given grief for a situation that is not their fault. There is no way that two 120's that are both operated by First as an example should run behind each other. The are supposed to be regulated and controlled by the controllers who are supposed to even out the service. If one is 20 minutes late and full of school children, it should be drop off only out of service until it's levelled out again but they seem quite happy to allow them to follow each other. A controller or depot manager needs to sort this out.

As for vandalism and antisocial behaviour, I agree completely, this is happening far too often and the justice system from the police upwards is doing nowhere near enough to stop it. Slap of the wrist, you naughty person is all they get. Meanwhile the rest of us have a diverted service for a week because their response is so inept. The pram situation, as someone who has a walker and mobility issues I know can be a problem, for me drivers could help themselves a bit here by all sticking to the same hymn sheet. I have seen some drivers that will allow prams to sit in the isle to save an argument, whilst others are rightly stricter. For me the answer is simple, no more than two prams at any time unfolded. If needs be you can fold the pram or wait for the next bus. If anyone gives you verbal diarrhoea for this then you simply tell them their behaviour is on camera and they are being reported. Same principle applies to those stupid 80p passes. I would scrap them, half adult fayre across the board for all under 18's, no matter where they reside. SYPTE would save a fortune, and save drivers again those that bother to enforce the rule an awful lot of grief. I totally sympathise with the scenarios you have outlined and think drivers need more support from their management, and other agencies.            

[crossscythe]

I feel symlathy for the situation and conditions that drivers are working in. It's not nice being treated with disdain by customers but also to have a lack of respect from your employer is awful. Yes, the buses drive to the most dangerous areas of Sheffield and I wouldn't like to be trapped in a cab dealing with the problems asosciated with that.

Why is this becoming such a problem now though? I understand that manners and respect have been declining over the years, but there has never been such a struggle for bus drivers. I have noticed that people are more hostile and there has been plenty more aggression about over the last year or so. As for mobile phone "tickets" and smartcards, they sound like a complete nuisance. Cash and paper tickets are my choice of payment and I think they should have stuck to that. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

[overground]

Jun 4, 2022 10:44:57 GMT The Captain said:

Jun 3, 2022 22:57:09 GMT The Captain said:

And they come back when they are spending too much time away from home, it's not about pay.

Duncans pretty much covered it, but when your out there it's pretty much like going into a warzone.
You've got other road users pulling out on you, doing illegal turns, last minute braking, sitting in bus stops or abusing bus only priorities, not letting you out from stops, you sit at Meadowhead roundabout trying to get out and cars are coming round across the 4 lanes not indicating and there's no chance of pulling out sensibly so you have to go for the next gap regardless and your driving a bus where the torque converter doesn't engage so it goes to second gear then realises we are on the move so goes back to first and slows right down in the middle of all these lanes giving a huge heave down the bus making passengers tut and the greenroad systems flashing yellow at you and none of its your fault.
You set off from Ranmoor at Schooltime and by the the third stop you are standing full, by the Hallam shire there's enough passengers waiting to fill another 2 buses but your on your own, the one 6 minutes in front is missing be it staff or breakdown, your getting a mouthful off the out patients but the NHS staff are like us in the public eye so they are a bit more resigned to waiting for the next couple to come along. By time you get to Castle St you have emptied quite a bit and there's plenty of seats before you hit Haymarket but those stood on Angel St give you the dirty looks oh look another half empty 120 every 2 minutes, they don't see the carnage up by the hospitals and universities, and it's identical on the 52s, students-that's another story but it can take forever loading them because they don't scan their cards properly and pull the tickets before it cuts and pull the roll down the bus jamming the machine.
You get to Westfield and you've got off road motorbikes playing chicken with you, kids throwing anything they can at you or trying to jump on the roof from the over bridges, get to Halfway and your quiet 5 minutes evaporates because the Trams not running again and intending passengers are asking all the questions and going through which day tickets they can use.
Imagine multiple prams on or waiting to get on at Schooltime and despite being diplomatic and letting as many as you can get on, those that can't resort to the usual vulgar name calling and complaining, you can't please everyone....

Staff finish shifts burnt out or full of rage, not nice for families taking it home.

On about kids throwing anything they can yes, we’ve got 4 buses off as I speak now with broken windows. Over this past 6 months, maybe 12 months it’s the worst I’ve ever known it and it’s not just one area that’s causing the problem. Having spoken to drivers who have been on the job a lot longer than me they say yes it’s always happened but not like we’re getting it now day in day out

[simonk82701]

Jun 4, 2022 23:07:39 GMT crossscythe said:

I feel symlathy for the situation and conditions that drivers are working in. It's not nice being treated with disdain by customers but also to have a lack of respect from your employer is awful. Yes, the buses drive to the most dangerous areas of Sheffield and I wouldn't like to be trapped in a cab dealing with the problems asosciated with that.

Why is this becoming such a problem now though? I understand that manners and respect have been declining over the years, but there has never been such a struggle for bus drivers. I have noticed that people are more hostile and there has been plenty more aggression about over the last year or so. As for mobile phone "tickets" and smartcards, they sound like a complete nuisance. Cash and paper tickets are my choice of payment and I think they should have stuck to that. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

I think one of the possible reasons for the worsening behaviour has been the pandemic. The problem kids could effectively drop out of school and start to cause mayhem. I heard a statistic recently, (sorry cannot remember where or exactly how many) but I am sure it was something like 100,000 kids were off rolled, and that no one knew what had happened to most of them. There is only one solution, zero tolerance and the police coming down like a ton of bricks. Most of these kids will never recover and some will end up in prison.

A similar situation could apply to the buses. The Gov want us to use them, but the drop in passenger numbers is making them less frequent and far more expensive. Not to mention driver shortages. They need to be subsidised as heavily as the trains are for a while to encourage people back on them. Prices need to come down conditions for drivers need to be improved. Let's face it, if we want to assist climate change, bus use should be encouraged.           

[crossscythe]

Jun 5, 2022 9:04:28 GMT simonk82701 said:

Jun 4, 2022 23:07:39 GMT crossscythe said:

I feel symlathy for the situation and conditions that drivers are working in. It's not nice being treated with disdain by customers but also to have a lack of respect from your employer is awful. Yes, the buses drive to the most dangerous areas of Sheffield and I wouldn't like to be trapped in a cab dealing with the problems asosciated with that.

Why is this becoming such a problem now though? I understand that manners and respect have been declining over the years, but there has never been such a struggle for bus drivers. I have noticed that people are more hostile and there has been plenty more aggression about over the last year or so. As for mobile phone "tickets" and smartcards, they sound like a complete nuisance. Cash and paper tickets are my choice of payment and I think they should have stuck to that. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

I think one of the possible reasons for the worsening behaviour has been the pandemic. The problem kids could effectively drop out of school and start to cause mayhem. I heard a statistic recently, (sorry cannot remember where or exactly how many) but I am sure it was something like 100,000 kids were off rolled, and that no one knew what had happened to most of them. There is only one solution, zero tolerance and the police coming down like a ton of bricks. Most of these kids will never recover and some will end up in prison.

A similar situation could apply to the buses. The Gov want us to use them, but the drop in passenger numbers is making them less frequent and far more expensive. Not to mention driver shortages. They need to be subsidised as heavily as the trains are for a while to encourage people back on them. Prices need to come down conditions for drivers need to be improved. Let's face it, if we want to assist climate change, bus use should be encouraged.           

Well, I was quite shocked to be charged £3 for a single fare in to the city centre from Lodge Moor recently! Haha. It sounds like the management at the depots need a good shake up. Erratic shift patterns and distrust from Managers can't be good for staff morale.

The scamdemic lockdowns have been very damaging for kids, yes. I have noticed the behaviour of kids to have worstened. I've noticed on the trams a lot more trying to get away with no ticket/not paying. On the buses, there needs to be more Revenue Officers to keep them in line. There used to be signs up by the cab doors on buses that said "No pass? Then, it's full fare." Perhaps they ought to be reintroduced. The problem is if one driver lets them off, then the next poor driver who actually sticks to the rules gets flack. As someone said up the theead, consistency and sticking to the rules is the only way. More could be done to keep the drivers safe in the cabs, such as bullet-proof glass and panic alarms linked to the depot. Perhaps new buses could be fitted with automatic laser controlled ramps that deploy for wheelchairs by a push button so that the driver doesn't need to leave the cab. They should provide car parking spaces for those drivers who book on/book off when there are no buses running. It wouldn't cost them much, I surely they could provide space at the depot if they stopped using the park as a holding bay for passing transfers and withdrawn vehicles.

[simonk82701]

Jun 5, 2022 16:44:48 GMT crossscythe said:

Jun 5, 2022 9:04:28 GMT simonk82701 said:

I think one of the possible reasons for the worsening behaviour has been the pandemic. The problem kids could effectively drop out of school and start to cause mayhem. I heard a statistic recently, (sorry cannot remember where or exactly how many) but I am sure it was something like 100,000 kids were off rolled, and that no one knew what had happened to most of them. There is only one solution, zero tolerance and the police coming down like a ton of bricks. Most of these kids will never recover and some will end up in prison.

A similar situation could apply to the buses. The Gov want us to use them, but the drop in passenger numbers is making them less frequent and far more expensive. Not to mention driver shortages. They need to be subsidised as heavily as the trains are for a while to encourage people back on them. Prices need to come down conditions for drivers need to be improved. Let's face it, if we want to assist climate change, bus use should be encouraged.           

Well, I was quite shocked to be charged £3 for a single fare in to the city centre from Lodge Moor recently! Haha. It sounds like the management at the depots need a good shake up. Erratic shift patterns and distrust from Managers can't be good for staff morale.

The scamdemic lockdowns have been very damaging for kids, yes. I have noticed the behaviour of kids to have worstened. I've noticed on the trams a lot more trying to get away with no ticket/not paying. On the buses, there needs to be more Revenue Officers to keep them in line. There used to be signs up by the cab doors on buses that said "No pass? Then, it's full fare." Perhaps they ought to be reintroduced. The problem is if one driver lets them off, then the next poor driver who actually sticks to the rules gets flack. As someone said up the theead, consistency and sticking to the rules is the only way. More could be done to keep the drivers safe in the cabs, such as bullet-proof glass and panic alarms linked to the depot. Perhaps new buses could be fitted with automatic laser controlled ramps that deploy for wheelchairs by a push button so that the driver doesn't need to leave the cab. They should provide car parking spaces for those drivers who book on/book off when there are no buses running. It wouldn't cost them much, I surely they could provide space at the depot if they stopped using the park as a holding bay for passing transfers and withdrawn vehicles.

Couldn't agree more. I think one possible solution to improve the management situation would be for VOSA to mandate that all controllers and managers need to drive for say 200 hours a year to maintain their job and license, unless they have a medical reason why this cannot be carried out. I have known passengers have to direct controllers because it is that long since they have done a particular route. They forget what it is like on the bottom rung, and half of them I suspect could not handle the rotas they dish out to drivers. Midnight finishes with 8:30am starts maybe legal but are totally immoral as far as I am concerned. I also agree that transport should be provided for early morning and late shifts. And last but certainly not least, back a driver up for enforcing the correct rules. Swear at them they should be able to kick you off without having to justify themselves. As for those 80p passes, scrap the beeping things. We don't get anything like that over the border in Worksop Notts. In fact it's something like  £7.70 for a 3.5 mile journey return. so 7 miles in total for an adult. Yes you can get day tickets but it's still not cheap. 

[donc]

Wasn't FSY supposed to be better under the Leicester takeover?

Is repainting and rebranding the buses the only thing that's changed?