Service disruption (Read 16,420 times)

[The Captain]

Apr 19, 2012 15:17:27 GMT lysander said:

Could it be that with a length of 34.8 metre( one of the longest articulated cars ever built) and with a tare of 46.5 tonnes a tram carrying up to 320 passengers at speeds up to a max of 50mph needs some priority...especially at road junctions?

Well lets have double deck Trams that are half the length and shorter stopping distances. Trams have always had priority over other traffic at road junctions-thats why us locals like to waste petrol on Gleadless Rd whilst lights change 3 times for a Halfway then Herdings Trams and vicce versa. The Tram was certainly important enough to turn the city centres road layouts upside down, kill a lot of small businesses off during construction and ruin the house prices directly alongside the routes. If there were more investment in new rolling stock to increase capacity, even a few new routes thought out a bit more sensibly then it could be so much more.

[lysander]

The city centre was turned upside down when the first generation of the 'new fangled' things were first introduced early last century...so there's absolutely nothing new in the costs associated with change is there? With an emergency deceleration of 3m/s2 and multi braking systems trams are well equipped for the road conditions and seem to be appreciated by most of us who use them. As a car user I have to confess that I find following a bus just as frustrating as you self evidently find following a tram...and, from experience, the morning crawl down Ecclesall Road is much slower than Gleadless Road...and there are no trams to contend with on Ecclesall!

[The Captain]

Apr 19, 2012 15:42:17 GMT lysander said:

The city centre was turned upside down when the first generation of the 'new fangled' things were first introduced early last century...so there's absolutely nothing new in the costs associated with change is there? With an emergency deceleration of 3m/s2 and multi braking systems trams are well equipped for the road conditions and seem to be appreciated by most of us who use them. As a car user I have to confess that I find following a bus just as frustrating as you self evidently find following a tram...and, from experience, the morning crawl down Ecclesall Road is much slower than Gleadless Road...and there are no trams to contend with on Ecclesall!

Was High St/Church St and Pinstone St one way in 1900 and blob?. No.

Does Gleadless Road/Ridgeway Rd lights face City?. No.

Can buses pull into bus stops or laybys?. Yes.

Are most car drivers selfish and lack basic life skills never mind driving skills?. Yes.

Do bus drivers get disciplined for putting passengers on the floor during emergency braking if at fault?. Yes.

[lysander]

Change still has its costs whether Church Street was one way or not!

Buses can pull into lay bys but frequently leave their rears stuck out into the road!

Most car drivers would therefore include the majority of the population...I imagine what you mean is that bus-drivers are the only ones possessing life and driving skills? If so, I have met several of them who could do with re-training ,especially on life and social skills ...which are, apparantly, at a premium!

I understand, from another thread, that Bus drivers get disciplined for all manner of reasons but an emergency stop when life and limb are at risk...surely not!

[The Captain]

Apr 19, 2012 16:01:48 GMT lysander said:

Change still has its costs whether Church Street was one way or not!

Buses can pull into lay bys but frequently leave their rears stuck out into the road!

Most car drivers would therefore include the majority of the population...I imagine what you mean is that bus-drivers are the only ones possessing life and driving skills? If so, I have met several of them who could do with re-training ,especially on life and social skills ...which are, apparantly, at a premium!

I understand, from another thread, that Bus drivers get disciplined for all manner of reasons but an emergency stop when life and limb are at risk...surely not!

Everyone is expected to bear the costs, if Sheffield was not one great big one-way loop all the bus companys could take a bus and its 3 drivers out of each major routes PVRs. Everytime a bus breaks down in the one way system First gets vilified for all kinds of reasons when the root cause of such chaos is the alterations to accomodate Supertram and the tinkering since by various anti-car councils.

Be nice to get into some bus stops and laybys if parking enforcement was a bit more widespread. One of my former colleagues learnt about leaving the back end out of bus stops whe a tram hit his B10M and pushed it up West St.

There are people who can drive and those that cant-whether it be as a Proffesional or from 18 to 88 in a cheap car or expensive one. Same with life skills-the idea being those employed get the training but sadly no company has a 100% perfect workforce.

I did mention "If at fault" re emergency stops, of course there are isolated instances where there is no alternative and that goes for most modes of transport-but a Tram driver or PCV driver at the top of his game should be driving with all such considerations v speed/distance on busy stretches to avoid doing such things. FSY drivers have been disciplined for not allowing passengers to sit down pulling away-where does this leave standees?.

[The Captain]

The top and tail of this arguement is a Firstbus broke down on a Junction stopping the Supertram network. Until its removal FSY accepted all Supertram tickets and passes as it and Stagecoach do whenever there is a stoppage. Hillsborough is a regular spot.

The arguement that Supertram is far more important than buses does not hold water on the basis of its size and availability to all v bus network and timetables plus flexibility such as Optio.

[lysander]

Just a few facts to add to the debate:

1) According to SYPTE there are 140 million passenger journeys made annually by tram, train and bus in the region.
2) 80% of these are by bus
3) The tram sees 15 million passengers a year.
4) A recent survey by SYPTE (in Doncaster) showed that 57% of all bus passengers are dissatisfied .
5) According to a 2004 report by the National Audit Office the Supertram had "little"impact on road congestion.

[The Captain]

Apr 19, 2012 16:38:08 GMT lysander said:

Just a few facts to add to the debate:

1) According to SYPTE there are 140 million passenger journeys made annually by tram, train and bus in the region.
2) 80% of these are by bus
3) The tram sees 15 million passengers a year.
4) A recent survey by SYPTE (in Doncaster) showed that 57% of all bus passengers are dissatisfied .
5) According to a 2004 report by the National Audit Office the Supertram had "little"impact on road congestion.

Well we can take the last 2 out of the equasion then!. An 8 year old report done when buses were far more busy and when car usage was a lot lower, and a survey done in an area where there is one main operator (with its faults)-no Tram and suffers chronic congestion regularly. Have we covered the one about taxpayers from other areas funding Supertram yet?.

[woah]

As captain said in the first place, irregardless of any past events or effects the tram has had to Sheffield - buses carry more people around the city than trams and it's as simple as that. I honestly can't work out how someone can say the trams are more important.

And I say this as someone who relies on the tram on a regular basis!

[The Captain]

Apr 19, 2012 17:30:39 GMT woah said:

As captain said in the first place, irregardless of any past events or effects the tram has had to Sheffield - buses carry more people around the city than trams and it's as simple as that. I honestly can't work out how someone can say the trams are more important.

They are important if you are a Counciller/Politician (of any persuasion) and those lucky enough to live within 5 minutes walk of the system. Until it doubles in size and capacity then i cannot see how it can be judged as Sheffields most important transportation-although i did say in another thread that in my opinon it is the best in terms of quality/reliability.

[woah]

Yes - I live within 30 seconds walk of the tram and the service provided is excellent, though full fare is quite ysteep. But as you say it's just not big enough to justify as 'more important'.

[alemaster]

Apr 19, 2012 12:24:13 GMT @moonraker79 said:

Apr 18, 2012 20:53:59 GMT busman3 said:

But it was standard practicce for first to accept tram tickets when service was disrupted

Does it work the other way round when Trams disrupt every bus in Sheffield when they wait at sets of Traffic Lights for 10 minutes just to wait for a tram?

10 minutes? Every bus in Sheffield?

Where are these traffic lights?

Perhaps the bus routes need reviewing?

[alemaster]

Buses are mechanical machines - you have to accept that even if well maintained, they will break down now and again. Same with trams, trains, planes, cars whatever.

In a city we cannot have the space everywhere for seperate lanes for each mode of transport so there will be disruption from time to time - the important thing is how such disruption is handled to minimise the impact on people's journey.

[alexander]

Supertram carry between 20 and 25% of bus/tram passengers in Sheffield .

[lysander]

And on just 18 miles of track of which the cost of maintenance is solely the responsibility of the operator...unlike a bus whose cost of its 'bit' of road, traffic lights etc. is subsidised by every other road user.. through taxation. As I said earlier, a tram versus bus debate is pointless and sterile....since the cost of building light railways is born by the taxpayer as well.

I also suspect some of your logic is also flawed, captain. The report I mentioned is still considered valid by, amongst others, the DfT and its inferrence of "little impact", at a time when you argue there was more bus useage, would seem to indicate that impact in today's climate would be even less. I also reckon you will find that with the price of petrol, today's car useage is also somewhat less.. at least that's what the media is claiming.

I suspect you might just be a little prejudiced against the tram...which I agree is the cause of some frustration to other road users...just as are lorries, buses, cars and cyclists...not to mention pedestrians!