SYMCA bus tenders from October 2023 (Read 7,267 times)

[rothlad]

Interesting to see the proposals from SYMCA have now gone live for the local bus network from 29th October 2023. Looks like a major cull of evening and Sunday provision, with most services decimated to 2 hourly frequencies. Imagine the purse strings are pretty tight and with SYMCA not receiving BSIP funding, this has just been the final nail in the coffin...


All evening and Sunday services are up for renewal. Some of the main highlights that I've noticed are:
- 1 High Green to Jordanthorpe. Curtailed to operate High Green to Sheffield only.
- 1A Chapeltown to Herdings. Services introduced between Sheffield and Herdings late evenings to partially replace service 1. Old 47/48 loop with hourly co-ordinated departures from Sheffield and Herdings on services 1A/11.
- 7 Ecclesfield to Woodhouse. Withdrawn. Replaced with 8 in North Sheffield and 42 in South Sheffield.
- 8 Sheffield to Birley. Extended through to Ecclesfield every 2hrs.
- 18A Sheffield to Hillsborough. Diverted to Cloonmore Drive (not seen a bus since 2012 when TM 43 was withdrawn?) to partially replace service 1.
- 20 Ecclesfield to Hemsworth. Split into two routes. 20A in North Sheffield. 25A in South Sheffield.
- 20A Sheffield to Ecclesfield. Hourly service running the old 79/89 loop in Parson Cross. Serves Holgate Avenue/Colley Crescent towards Ecclesfield and Yew Lane/Chaucer Road towards Sheffield. Circular service.
- 25A Woodhouse to Hemsworth. 2hr service running as an extension to service 25 from Sheffield through to Hemsworth via the current 20 service. Every 2hrs.
- 42 Sheffield to Woodhouse. 2hr service running as an extension to service 41 from Dyke Vale Road to Woodhouse Village. Partially covers service 7 in Normanton Springs and Woodhouse.
- 83 Chapeltown to Fulwood. Curtailed to operate Chapeltown to Sheffield only. Every 2hrs.
- 86 Chapeltown to Lowedges. Curtailed to operate Chapeltown to Sheffield only. Every 2hrs.
- 108/109 Rotherham to Rawmarsh. Reintroduced former circular services, 2hr each way around with hourly co-ordinated departures from Rotherham Interchange.
- 207 Sheffield to Rotherham. As service 208 currently to Whiston, then via Spinneyfield and Rotherham Hospital (like service 21). Looks to be co-ordinated with both the 21 and 73 to provide a hourly combined service to Whiston/Brinsworth.
- X1 Sheffield to Maltby. Curtailed to operate Sheffield to Rotherham only. Service X10 introduced evenings and Sundays every 2hrs from Sheffield through to Maltby.


Most services appear to be reduced to 2 hourly. There are a few routes that have maintained hourly services such as the 19A in Rotherham, 20 (will become 20A) in North Sheffield, 81/82 in Doncaster and the 95A in Barnsley. Assume this is due to them serving the major hospital corridors. Pretty dire situation I'm sure you will all agree!

[TC60054]

Aug 11, 2023 11:37:26 GMT rothlad said:

Interesting to see the proposals from SYMCA have now gone live for the local bus network from 29th October 2023. Looks like a major cull of evening and Sunday provision, with most services decimated to 2 hourly frequencies. Imagine the purse strings are pretty tight and with SYMCA not receiving BSIP funding, this has just been the final nail in the coffin...


All evening and Sunday services are up for renewal. Some of the main highlights that I've noticed are:
- 1 High Green to Jordanthorpe. Curtailed to operate High Green to Sheffield only.
- 1A Chapeltown to Herdings. Services introduced between Sheffield and Herdings late evenings to partially replace service 1. Old 47/48 loop with hourly co-ordinated departures from Sheffield and Herdings on services 1A/11.
- 7 Ecclesfield to Woodhouse. Withdrawn. Replaced with 8 in North Sheffield and 42 in South Sheffield.
- 8 Sheffield to Birley. Extended through to Ecclesfield every 2hrs.
- 18A Sheffield to Hillsborough. Diverted to Cloonmore Drive (not seen a bus since 2012 when TM 43 was withdrawn?) to partially replace service 1.
- 20 Ecclesfield to Hemsworth. Split into two routes. 20A in North Sheffield. 25A in South Sheffield.
- 20A Sheffield to Ecclesfield. Hourly service running the old 79/89 loop in Parson Cross. Serves Holgate Avenue/Colley Crescent towards Ecclesfield and Yew Lane/Chaucer Road towards Sheffield. Circular service.
- 25A Woodhouse to Hemsworth. 2hr service running as an extension to service 25 from Sheffield through to Hemsworth via the current 20 service. Every 2hrs.
- 42 Sheffield to Woodhouse. 2hr service running as an extension to service 41 from Dyke Vale Road to Woodhouse Village. Partially covers service 7 in Normanton Springs and Woodhouse.
- 83 Chapeltown to Fulwood. Curtailed to operate Chapeltown to Sheffield only. Every 2hrs.
- 86 Chapeltown to Lowedges. Curtailed to operate Chapeltown to Sheffield only. Every 2hrs.
- 108/109 Rotherham to Rawmarsh. Reintroduced former circular services, 2hr each way around with hourly co-ordinated departures from Rotherham Interchange.
- 207 Sheffield to Rotherham. As service 208 currently to Whiston, then via Spinneyfield and Rotherham Hospital (like service 21). Looks to be co-ordinated with both the 21 and 73 to provide a hourly combined service to Whiston/Brinsworth.
- X1 Sheffield to Maltby. Curtailed to operate Sheffield to Rotherham only. Service X10 introduced evenings and Sundays every 2hrs from Sheffield through to Maltby.


Most services appear to be reduced to 2 hourly. There are a few routes that have maintained hourly services such as the 19A in Rotherham, 20 (will become 20A) in North Sheffield, 81/82 in Doncaster and the 95A in Barnsley. Assume this is due to them serving the major hospital corridors. Pretty dire situation I'm sure you will all agree!

Is there anywhere we can see the full list of contracts out for tender?

[The Captain]

Delightful.
Irespective of the funding issues and individual operator needs /wishes, is this what it has come to one of the biggest city's in Britain and we are putting out 2 hourly frequencys?.

[bususer]

what is happening to the 81?

[chapeltowncallum]

Does anyone have a link to the full list please wouldn't mind looking at some of my local routes that are changing.

[simonk82701]

If this was not so serious, it would be laughable. We now have two cities in SY, one of which they are doing their best to keep cars out of. And the cannot even maintain a basic hourly frequency on key Sheffield city centre services. If anyone has any idea of the 22 Doncaster or the X5 Sheffield, I would be most grateful. I think if things are genuinely this bad for SYMCA and the operators, then all bus gates and the emission zone need to be disabled after 7pm and all day Sunday. If they cannot provide an adequate minimum service level, then people must be allowed to drive freely without any hindrance, in and out of the city. I keep hearing rumours that Doncaster interchange may as well close at night on on Sundays, as so little will be running out of it. It now has city status for goodness sake! SYMCA in no way cover themselves in glory here, and nor do the operators, who are more than happy to run buses, while the money flows, but as soon as things get that little bit harder the lose interest. I am no supporter of the current government, but no one can say that money hasn't been pumped into the industry. It's not the fault of passengers that some operators chose not to take the money, or that they had treated their staff in such a way that they left because the got fed up! It makes me so angary. Funny how a south Pennine driver said to me that SY has had it too good for too long. He said a child fare is west Yorkshire is up to £1.80.

[donc]

I do hope if the 2 hour frequency goes ahead they will have the sense to put double deckers on, 81/82 are full when streetlites are used on a Saturday evening at 30 minute frequencies.

Doncaster at the moment is not reaping the benefits of city status, first the loss of the airport, the refusal of a new hospital, pedestrianisation of the city centre pushing buses further and further away from the main areas and the rubble mess that is Waterdale and the virtually empty Collanades.

The council have done their best to push buses away from the city centre helping the footfall drop markedly, I mean some buses only have the interchange stand as a stop in the centre compare this to 30 years ago when buses had stops at two bus stations, Duke Street, St Sepulchre Gate, High Street, Silver Street.

Doncaster doesn't welcome cars or buses no wonder the place is dead no one can get into it, you only have to watch Youtube videos from the 90s to see how many people used to walk around Cleveland Street and Waterdale now you are lucky if you see more than 2 or 3 people in these areas.

[simonk82701]

Aug 11, 2023 18:01:42 GMT donc said:

I do hope if the 2 hour frequency goes ahead they will have the sense to put double deckers on, 81/82 are full when streetlites are used on a Saturday evening at 30 minute frequencies.

Doncaster at the moment is not reaping the benefits of city status, first the loss of the airport, the refusal of a new hospital, pedestrianisation of the city centre pushing buses further and further away from the main areas and the rubble mess that is Waterdale and the virtually empty Collanades.

The council have done their best to push buses away from the city centre helping the footfall drop markedly, I mean some buses only have the interchange stand as a stop in the centre compare this to 30 years ago when buses had stops at two bus stations, Duke Street, St Sepulchre Gate, High Street, Silver Street.

Doncaster doesn't welcome cars or buses no wonder the place is dead no one can get into it, you only have to watch Youtube videos from the 90s to see how many people used to walk around Cleveland Street and Waterdale now you are lucky if you see more than 2 or 3 people in these areas.

The 81/82 Doncaster appear to be okay. Guessing because it's a hospital route. That will apparently run at least hourly. When you look at it, and describe it like that, I totally get it. I thought   Sheffield was worse, but yes the number of stops and indeed buses has declined dramatically from a decade ago. The hospital badly needs investment, I do wonder if saving the airport should be a priority compared to saving a working bus network. But I totally understand that some people may disagree with me there. I wonder what will happen to services on the Donny outskirts at night and on Sundays? Edlington, Arksy, Thorne etc. I bet there left with very little but I do hope I am wrong. They really did make a thing of city status didn't they? Now look. Doncaster is far better than Worksop though. We have next to nothing left, and if Wilko go well. I also wonder if SYMCA will keep all this quiet until the last possible moment? They must know the brown stuff will hit the fan! I also wonder how many services now require subsidy. A driver told me that he felt the 19A on a Sunday hourly to Rotherham was getting as busy as on a weekday. And if First can fill a streetlite on a half hourly service, do the really all require financial assistance? Not saying for a moment there is any cheating going on, but simply have they got use to being supported? I guess SYMCA monitor numbers, but I could be wrong. 

[donc]

Aug 11, 2023 20:26:32 GMT simonk82701 said:

Aug 11, 2023 18:01:42 GMT donc said:

I do hope if the 2 hour frequency goes ahead they will have the sense to put double deckers on, 81/82 are full when streetlites are used on a Saturday evening at 30 minute frequencies.

Doncaster at the moment is not reaping the benefits of city status, first the loss of the airport, the refusal of a new hospital, pedestrianisation of the city centre pushing buses further and further away from the main areas and the rubble mess that is Waterdale and the virtually empty Collanades.

The council have done their best to push buses away from the city centre helping the footfall drop markedly, I mean some buses only have the interchange stand as a stop in the centre compare this to 30 years ago when buses had stops at two bus stations, Duke Street, St Sepulchre Gate, High Street, Silver Street.

Doncaster doesn't welcome cars or buses no wonder the place is dead no one can get into it, you only have to watch Youtube videos from the 90s to see how many people used to walk around Cleveland Street and Waterdale now you are lucky if you see more than 2 or 3 people in these areas.

The 81/82 Doncaster appear to be okay. Guessing because it's a hospital route. That will apparently run at least hourly. When you look at it, and describe it like that, I totally get it. I thought   Sheffield was worse, but yes the number of stops and indeed buses has declined dramatically from a decade ago. The hospital badly needs investment, I do wonder if saving the airport should be a priority compared to saving a working bus network. But I totally understand that some people may disagree with me there. I wonder what will happen to services on the Donny outskirts at night and on Sundays? Edlington, Arksy, Thorne etc. I bet there left with very little but I do hope I am wrong. They really did make a thing of city status didn't they? Now look. Doncaster is far better than Worksop though. We have next to nothing left, and if Wilko go well. I also wonder if SYMCA will keep all this quiet until the last possible moment? They must know the brown stuff will hit the fan! I also wonder how many services now require subsidy. A driver told me that he felt the 19A on a Sunday hourly to Rotherham was getting as busy as on a weekday. And if First can fill a streetlite on a half hourly service, do the really all require financial assistance? Not saying for a moment there is any cheating going on, but simply have they got use to being supported? I guess SYMCA monitor numbers, but I could be wrong. 

15 Edlington to Clay Lane is already an hourly service on a Sunday, Thorne is also only hourly both are hardly used (though Edlington to Interchange can be busy but to Clay Lane on a Sunday you would be lucky to have more than 4 people on it. They also stupidly send 84 and 87 off at the same time and part of the route is the same so the buses just follow each other.

81/82 is lucky as it keeps a 10 min frequency during weekdays and 15 mins on Saturday and Sunday, last year they reduced it to 15 but had to put it back to 10 to keep a 10 minute service to hospital without the hospital I doubt it would be more than 20 minutes. 84 got messed up with the Goodfellows/First crossover last Sunday a man with limited English wanted to go to Lindholme and the driver was trying to explain that he needed two buses that don't connect. 

I do not like seeing a streetlite on 81/82 on a Saturday evening as like last week it will mean a full bus/standing with cramped smelly conditions I do not know why they insist on Streetlites on Armthorpe they know how busy it can be but it is what it is.

[simonk82701]

Aug 11, 2023 20:42:26 GMT donc said:

Aug 11, 2023 20:26:32 GMT simonk82701 said:

The 81/82 Doncaster appear to be okay. Guessing because it's a hospital route. That will apparently run at least hourly. When you look at it, and describe it like that, I totally get it. I thought   Sheffield was worse, but yes the number of stops and indeed buses has declined dramatically from a decade ago. The hospital badly needs investment, I do wonder if saving the airport should be a priority compared to saving a working bus network. But I totally understand that some people may disagree with me there. I wonder what will happen to services on the Donny outskirts at night and on Sundays? Edlington, Arksy, Thorne etc. I bet there left with very little but I do hope I am wrong. They really did make a thing of city status didn't they? Now look. Doncaster is far better than Worksop though. We have next to nothing left, and if Wilko go well. I also wonder if SYMCA will keep all this quiet until the last possible moment? They must know the brown stuff will hit the fan! I also wonder how many services now require subsidy. A driver told me that he felt the 19A on a Sunday hourly to Rotherham was getting as busy as on a weekday. And if First can fill a streetlite on a half hourly service, do the really all require financial assistance? Not saying for a moment there is any cheating going on, but simply have they got use to being supported? I guess SYMCA monitor numbers, but I could be wrong. 

15 Edlington to Clay Lane is already an hourly service on a Sunday, Thorne is also only hourly both are hardly used (though Edlington to Interchange can be busy but to Clay Lane on a Sunday you would be lucky to have more than 4 people on it. They also stupidly send 84 and 87 off at the same time and part of the route is the same so the buses just follow each other.

81/82 is lucky as it keeps a 10 min frequency during weekdays and 15 mins on Saturday and Sunday, last year they reduced it to 15 but had to put it back to 10 to keep a 10 minute service to hospital without the hospital I doubt it would be more than 20 minutes. 84 got messed up with the Goodfellows/First crossover last Sunday a man with limited English wanted to go to Lindholme and the driver was trying to explain that he needed two buses that don't connect. 

I do not like seeing a streetlite on 81/82 on a Saturday evening as like last week it will mean a full bus/standing with cramped smelly conditions I do not know why they insist on Streetlites on Armthorpe they know how busy it can be but it is what it is.

Yes, the changes coming at the end of October 23, the 81/2 could go to hourly. I do fear that the outskirts of Donny could be left with a two hourly service or Nothing. The changes mentioned above appear to apply to evenings and Sundays only! 

[donc]

I don't understand why evening services have to have the same routes as daytime, they could tender for longer routes which cover more areas per bus.

For example in Doncaster why can't 15, 16 and 71 merge as one route in the evenings or Armthorpe and Cantley have a circular route down the main roads.

[alemaster]

Seems a bit odd that the 20 to Hemsworth is being chopped off its normal daytime cross city route and bolted onto a different one - why not run the 20a to Hemsworth? There is also the question that if the 25A to Hemsworth is replacing the 25 to Bradway does that mean Bradway is now getting its only remaining Sunday service axed (evening service was axed last October).

[dougie]

These really look harsh, even if we accepted that cuts are on their way (and passenger numbers are bound to fall when the £2 cap gets increased and again once it’s eventually scrapped), these feel the death knell

It’s so bad that I can’t even take much pleasure from seeing the return of the old Parson Cross loop that was the 79/89 or 779/789 or 87/97 depending on your generation… or the 47/48 (aka 49/49a) loop in the Gleadless Valley or the 108/109 at Rawmarsh or the Hemsworth - Heeley - City - Manor Park - Woodthorpe link that the 21 provided before the Eager Beavers

Some changes seem strange, even if you accept the overall level of cuts. Maybe it’s to balance up diagrams so that they fit a neat bi-hourly pattern with just one vehicle, or interworking so that chunks can be tendered together but if you are cutting lots of services then also cutting long established links like Heeley - Northern General seems a shame (given that both sides of the 20 will still be running). I’m sure many people in the Chesterfield Road area would prefer the NGH link rather than the Manor Park/ Woodhouse link that the new 20A maintains?

The 20 will only serve Yew Lane in one direction (to bring back the old circular in Parson Cross), but the relatively newly introduced extension of the 83 to Chapletown remains (despite Chapletown already having a regular Ecclesfield service with the 1/2) when those resources could have been used to run the 83 in a loop in the opposite direction to the 20 instead? Okay, it’d be hourly in one direction and bi-hourly in the other but it feels a bit lop sided

To think that we’ve gone from frequent intervals on the routes like the old 47/48 or 53 to this feels like a real shame

[donc]

I was on 64962 this evening on 82, 44 seats all full 3 standing from Christ Church, how can having a full single decker on a Saturday evening not be profitable, even if Armthorpe is reduced to once an hour in October it is going to be a very crowded service.

[alemaster]

Aug 12, 2023 15:10:47 GMT dougie said:

These really look harsh, even if we accepted that cuts are on their way (and passenger numbers are bound to fall when the £2 cap gets increased and again once it’s eventually scrapped), these feel the death knell

It’s so bad that I can’t even take much pleasure from seeing the return of the old Parson Cross loop that was the 79/89 or 779/789 or 87/97 depending on your generation… or the 47/48 (aka 49/49a) loop in the Gleadless Valley or the 108/109 at Rawmarsh or the Hemsworth - Heeley - City - Manor Park - Woodthorpe link that the 21 provided before the Eager Beavers

Some changes seem strange, even if you accept the overall level of cuts. Maybe it’s to balance up diagrams so that they fit a neat bi-hourly pattern with just one vehicle, or interworking so that chunks can be tendered together but if you are cutting lots of services then also cutting long established links like Heeley - Northern General seems a shame (given that both sides of the 20 will still be running). I’m sure many people in the Chesterfield Road area would prefer the NGH link rather than the Manor Park/ Woodhouse link that the new 20A maintains?

The 20 will only serve Yew Lane in one direction (to bring back the old circular in Parson Cross), but the relatively newly introduced extension of the 83 to Chapletown remains (despite Chapletown already having a regular Ecclesfield service with the 1/2) when those resources could have been used to run the 83 in a loop in the opposite direction to the 20 instead? Okay, it’d be hourly in one direction and bi-hourly in the other but it feels a bit lop sided

To think that we’ve gone from frequent intervals on the routes like the old 47/48 or 53 to this feels like a real shame

Of course the link between Heeley and Woodhouse is already provided by the 24 (Woodhouse to Lowedges) so the proposed 25a would increase that provision, which I doubt there is a lot of demand for, at the expense of the link to the Northern General and Wicker, which is likely to be used by shift workers. Of course City Centre to Chesterfield Road is also catered for by the 43, 44 and X17.

On this corridor full coverage remains really if 25a is just effectively a renumbered 20. The exception being Bradway continues to have no bus service whatsoever in the evening since the 24 was cut back to Woodhouse-Lowedges and the 25 was cut back to Woodhouse-City.

Part of Norton loses its buses with the 1 withdrawn and Hutcliffe Wood and Archer Road loses buses with the 86 gone, although to be fair they are close to other services.

I suppose the questions are we services previously cut in the evening due to shortage of customers or shortage of drivers?