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Post by bususer on Nov 9, 2023 15:39:54 GMT
Not sure whether to put this in here or the history section but I chose here as it is relevant to today. Here is my question.
We are constantly being told that the number of peak time buses must be reduced because of low demand, ie buses traveling around less than full. However, I am old enough to remember the early 1990s when almost all routes had competition on them during peak hours. Back then people complained that buses were running almost empty and carrying fresh air around (wouldn't it be nice to have this 'problem' today). However, despite relatively low levels of loading it was still commercially possible for two companies(more on common sections of route) to operate.
So, it it was possible then, why not now?
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Post by teapot42 on Nov 10, 2023 9:14:38 GMT
Not sure whether to put this in here or the history section but I chose here as it is relevant to today. Here is my question. We are constantly being told that the number of peak time buses must be reduced because of low demand, ie buses traveling around less than full. However, I am old enough to remember the early 1990s when almost all routes had competition on them during peak hours. Back then people complained that buses were running almost empty and carrying fresh air around (wouldn't it be nice to have this 'problem' today). However, despite relatively low levels of loading it was still commercially possible for two companies(more on common sections of route) to operate. So, it it was possible then, why not now? The most obvious reason is capacity. All the operators are struggling to run their existing services, so finding more drivers and vehicles to run more won't be easy. Even before Covid really hammered things the market didn't seem to be awash with spare drivers and vehicles, and to do this on any scale you'd need reasonable spare capacity.
There also seems to be less of a culture in general of services to meet demand - there are few if any works services for example, so operators maybe aren't so keen to have the extra hassle of managing drivers on part-time contracts to cover this type of work. I also get the impression that in the past there were more 'spare' drivers who could be used for this type of work, while now operators run things closer to the bone.
One other thing I've been told but don't fully know the implications of, is that apparently competition law prevents operators cross-subsidising services. I'd be interested to know how exactly this works in the industry - for example, I've heard extremes such as Stagecoach pulling individual journeys because they don't cover their costs and they claim they can't cross-subsidise them.
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Post by dougie on Nov 10, 2023 9:43:09 GMT
Cost and standards will have a lot to do with it - You certainly couldn't run "Eager Beaver" frequencies with today's costs, fun though it used to be
Thirty years ago you could run a twenty year old vehicle, or a repurposed "bread van" (or Routemasters that were plentiful on the second hand market like Rotherham & District had!), stick a postcard in the window with the destination on it and away you go - you could put the drivers on a relatively low hourly wage with the promise of some commission from the farebox, no Minimum Wage legislation to worry about
Look at how much more complicated/ expensive things are now - on top of the increases in fuel and staff wages you've got modern vehicles that are a lot more complicated and therefore full of reasons why they won't work - things are digital meaning it often either works or doesn't, no middle ground where you try to patch the vehicle up and hope it lasts until at least lunchtime - thirty years ago there was no tracking, no penalties for running late/ missing journeys, it wasn't the "Wild West" but you could get away with some things that are definitely not acceptable today
It was much easier to fix a window that didn't open/close properly than to attempt to tackle a faulty Air Conditioning unit (when Air Con works, it's great, but I mention it as an example of an additional cost that needs to be paid for and another thing that can keep a vehicle off the road - same with things like wheelchair ramps that are definitely an improvement on the inaccessible buses of the past but bodge jobs aren't acceptable when it comes to such things)
No clean air zones, no fines for faulty destination screens (certainly no need for numbers on the side/ rear of the vehicle back in the day), much less bureaucracy for firms to worry about, you could pretty much maintain a bus company from a portakabin on an industrial estate, rather than needing an HR department and other back office staff
But were buses running "almost empty"? Thirty years ago was the era where demand was still pretty high to town/city centres, no plethora of scattered office/retail perks, no online shopping, pubs and cinemas were a lot busier, rather than demand being dispersed across several different destinations - and that was before people started working from home
And even if they were "almost empty" off peak, the fact that you could fill them at certain times of the day as lots of people worked fairly strict 9-5 jobs and all finished drinking at the same time each night meant that firms could sustain some quieter journeys - the days of "last orders" at eleven each night and people scrambling for the 23:15 bus home feels a long time ago now (same with the firms who could run a handful of School services and then decided that they might as well put the bus into service during the daytime to earn a few quid because the marginal costs weren't too much - those operators have pretty much disappeared, especially with some schools/ Local Authorities wanting dedicated vehicles/ seatbelts etc like those yellow Turkish machines in West Yorkshire
Thirty years ago there might have been a hundred commuters/ shoppers/ socialisers wanting to leave a suburb each hour, pretty much all of whom will have been heading into the town/city centre - now, with online deliveries and working from home that's maybe only fifty or sixty potential passengers but the demand is spread between the town/city centre and a number of other destinations like Centretainment/ Parkgate/ Lakeside/ office parks, the car becomes a lot more attractive
Buses are good value for a weekly ticket but the need to "game" the system (to ensure a reasonable reimbursement from Pensioner passes) means that single fares are more expensive, you can pretty much pay a couple of quid to go a couple of stops - so making ad-hoc bus journeys feels a lot more expensive to people - fine for those who use the bus every day (especially those who combine working with shopping and nights out), but it's unattractive for casual users
Then look at housing. It was easy when you could run your Leyland National past somewhere high density like Kelvin Flats, knowing that there'd be lots of people living a very short walk from the bus stop. But modern housing either means sprawling estates like south eastern Doncaster that are hard for buses to penetrate because of cul-de-sacs/ narrow suburban roads/ low density meaning the nearest bus stop is an unattractive walk from many houses, or it means big blocks of flats around Sheffield's inner ring road, where the attraction of a "crash pad" within walking distance of the bright lights of West Street/ London Road is that you don't need to spend time and money commuting in from suburbia - it's better environmentally to have people walking a short distance into the city centre but it means that a bus from somewhere like Walkley is less profitable because the shared house that had four Students/ young professionals each making several trips to the University/ City Centre each week is replaced by a couple of thirty-somethings and kid/s who don't rely on buses so much (and. talking of students, thirty years ago you'd have had "Hallam" students spread between areas like Totley/ Psalter Lane, rather than centred around Howard Street/ Colliegate)
In many ways, the world has got better. But it's increasingly harder for buses to serve that world. Once upon a time you could fill double deckers when the shifts changed at Steelworks/ Mines, but try doing that at a modern Office Parks where staff are on flexi-time (if not home workers) - about the only routes like the old Steelworks/ Mines services are the ones like the 2A to the distribution centre at Grimethorpe or the various ones to the Amazon place by the M18
(and, on top of this, thirty years ago you had a pretty rubbish British Rail that didn't give the impression that it was competing for passengers - look at how the map of longer distance bus routes has fared since private train operators upped their game, no more buses from Sheffield to Leeds/ Worksop/ Manchester/ Huddersfield like the days of the X32/ X85/ X48/ X39 - only the "book in advance" National Express etc - clock face train timetables and adverts for cheap tickets make train travel look a lot more attractive - plus the tram has taken a huge chunk out of popular corridors like Meadowhall/ Hillsborough/ Crystal Peaks)
Everything became more complicated and more costly, and there seems no space in the market for a Mike Groves/ sut/ SheafLine/ Andrews/ South Riding etc - the independents are pretty thin on the ground (often swallowed up by bigger groups - and the ones who remain tend to be much more careful (e.g. South Pennine)
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Post by crossscythe on Nov 13, 2023 0:15:03 GMT
The move to build so much student accommodation in to the city centre has been detramental to some loadings. For example, the 60 (now 120) used to be full and standing by the time it reached West Street, you'd put your hand out and it wouldn't be able to pick you up.
In the 1990s, there were buses running around Middlewood, Stannington, Ballifield and all of the nook and crannies around there. The number 93 used to have considerable loadings.
The clause that prevents bus companies from subsidising other routes with money from more profitable ones has had a devestating impact on all of the little nipper type services. These routes got people on to the bus network by providing convenience at a close proximity to their home.
Bus drivers' salaries have increased overwhelmingly over the last 20 years. In 2004, I remember seeing Yorkshire Terrier advertising £6 per hour for drivers. It's more than treble that now. Bus companies are also replacing buses every 15 years or so, less in the case of the Enviro 300s at Stagecoach that only lasted around 12 years. As the previous poster said, in the 1990s, you'd have 23 year old Leyland Nationals, Leyland Atlanteans that had all recouped their purchase costs by then. Obviously hands were tied in the 2010s with the accessibility legislation that was off the Alexander PSs and Volvo Olympians. TM Travel have the right idea by making buses last. Those Solos must have made a tidy profit for Wellglade over the past 20 years.
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Post by The Captain on Nov 13, 2023 2:02:53 GMT
The move to build so much student accommodation in to the city centre has been detramental to some loadings. For example, the 60 (now 120) used to be full and standing by the time it reached West Street, you'd put your hand out and it wouldn't be able to pick you up. In the 1990s, there were buses running around Middlewood, Stannington, Ballifield and all of the nook and crannies around there. The number 93 used to have considerable loadings. The clause that prevents bus companies from subsidising other routes with money from more profitable ones has had a devestating impact on all of the little nipper type services. These routes got people on to the bus network by providing convenience at a close proximity to their home. Bus drivers' salaries have increased overwhelmingly over the last 20 years. In 2004, I remember seeing Yorkshire Terrier advertising £6 per hour for drivers. It's more than treble that now. Bus companies are also replacing buses every 15 years or so, less in the case of the Enviro 300s at Stagecoach that only lasted around 12 years. As the previous poster said, in the 1990s, you'd have 23 year old Leyland Nationals, Leyland Atlanteans that had all recouped their purchase costs by then. Obviously hands were tied in the 2010s with the accessibility legislation that was off the Alexander PSs and Volvo Olympians. TM Travel have the right idea by making buses last. Those Solos must have made a tidy profit for Wellglade over the past 20 years. I'm afraid wages at Yorkshire Terrier (Stagecoach) are actually just over 12 quid an hour so no they have not trebled and they now work evenings and Sundays which never happened in the old days, the fact the Union gave away time and a half on a Sunday might be one reason why they are short of staff. TM Travel have not got the right idea with its collection of vehicles and TBH I wonder if they are 100% compliant with the City Centre CAZ. Just for the benefit: The older the vehicle the more wear and tear and age related defects. The less availability of parts. The higher the cost of exhaust upgrades to meet the CAZ. The higher the vehicle tax consequently. Pre-deregulation a 12 year lifespan was deemed a good one back when buses underwent COFs (certificate of fitness) usually involving body rebuilds, major unit changes and a repaint, rather than the post dereg mantra of run it into the ground then get rid when it fails. 37228 is a good example-16 years old, never had a retrim or refurb and one repaint in its life, it's book value would have been mostly been what was added on the 2 Eminox upgrades from Euro 4 up to Euro 6. The engine failed, 2 choices, rebuild in house at 20K no warranty. Buy in (if you can get hold of one) a completely new Volvo D9 at 22-24K depending on location and fitting with warranty. They wrote it off, there are plenty of similar age or newer vehicles getting cascaded out of fleets upgrading to Electric or suffering reductions. First have generally (in Sheffield) got rid of problem buses such as the B6s, B10Ls and other batches of buses no longer compliant through the SQP by simply cutting the appropriate amount of vehicles off the PVR and letting other operators take the work it no longer wanted. Eventually it has come to the point they deem that they can maintain bus and staff levels and be the top dog on pay and in doing so take back much of the work it desepensed with over the years bit by bit. There's an easy answer to the problem of not being able to cross subsidise routes, your "community" routes should be tendered, if the public and the Mayor wants them then by all means pay for them, it's a niche South Pennine seem to be filling successfully, your Firsts and Stagecoach are core route operators not door to door, all the tinkering over the years to busy routes trying to serve the little bits that got dropped route by route have made them unreliable and too long winded. |
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Post by crossscythe on Nov 13, 2023 13:09:26 GMT
The move to build so much student accommodation in to the city centre has been detramental to some loadings. For example, the 60 (now 120) used to be full and standing by the time it reached West Street, you'd put your hand out and it wouldn't be able to pick you up. In the 1990s, there were buses running around Middlewood, Stannington, Ballifield and all of the nook and crannies around there. The number 93 used to have considerable loadings. The clause that prevents bus companies from subsidising other routes with money from more profitable ones has had a devestating impact on all of the little nipper type services. These routes got people on to the bus network by providing convenience at a close proximity to their home. Bus drivers' salaries have increased overwhelmingly over the last 20 years. In 2004, I remember seeing Yorkshire Terrier advertising £6 per hour for drivers. It's more than treble that now. Bus companies are also replacing buses every 15 years or so, less in the case of the Enviro 300s at Stagecoach that only lasted around 12 years. As the previous poster said, in the 1990s, you'd have 23 year old Leyland Nationals, Leyland Atlanteans that had all recouped their purchase costs by then. Obviously hands were tied in the 2010s with the accessibility legislation that was off the Alexander PSs and Volvo Olympians. TM Travel have the right idea by making buses last. Those Solos must have made a tidy profit for Wellglade over the past 20 years. , all the tinkering over the years to busy routes trying to serve the little bits that got dropped route by route have made them unreliable and too long winded. The 52a extension to Wisewood/Loxley/Bradfield School was a good example of that, reliability was abysmal, thankfully improved now it turns around at Hillsborough. |
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Post by bususer on Nov 13, 2023 16:33:30 GMT
I guess it's a trade off between bus quality and frequency. Personally I would be prepared to put up with some older buses if it meant having the kind of frequency from 30 years ago. My view is dereg might have been bad for drivers but overall good for customers.
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Post by crossscythe on Dec 3, 2023 23:47:49 GMT
I guess it's a trade off between bus quality and frequency. Personally I would be prepared to put up with some older buses if it meant having the kind of frequency from 30 years ago. My view is dereg might have been bad for drivers but overall good for customers. I absolutely agree, regarding having older buses with more frequency and services. Give me a Leyland National every 6 minutes over waiting half an hour in the pouring rain for an Enviro anyday. |
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Post by Mainline on Dec 15, 2023 10:33:56 GMT
Bus drivers' salaries have increased overwhelmingly over the last 20 years. In 2004, I remember seeing Yorkshire Terrier advertising £6 per hour for drivers. It's more than treble that now. Driver shortages suggest otherwise, particularly at Stagecoach (YTC). A wage of 3x that would be £18 an hour, a figure I'm certain all bus drivers would be more than happy to earn. A quick Google search shows the wages (particularly at former Terrier garage Holbrook) are considerably lower than that. |
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Post by duncan on Dec 15, 2023 18:04:22 GMT
Bus drivers' salaries have increased overwhelmingly over the last 20 years. In 2004, I remember seeing Yorkshire Terrier advertising £6 per hour for drivers. It's more than treble that now. Driver shortages suggest otherwise, particularly at Stagecoach (YTC). A wage of 3x that would be £18 an hour, a figure I'm certain all bus drivers would be more than happy to earn. A quick Google search shows the wages (particularly at former Terrier garage Holbrook) are considerably lower than that. Bus driving wages have very little to do with driver shortages. One of the biggest things driving staff away from the industry is the attitude of the public towards them, more so in Sheffield than other areas but still applies elsewhere. Try listening to the way the public talk to drivers and imagine putting up with that every day. Before anyone says that they are always polite, yes, some are, but lots are not. Having driven buses for over 40 years I gave up my PCV entitlement a few years ago and took a lower paid job where I am spoken to politely, often by the same people who are rude to bus drivers. No amount of money would coax me back. |
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Post by Mainline on Dec 15, 2023 20:44:49 GMT
Driver shortages suggest otherwise, particularly at Stagecoach (YTC). A wage of 3x that would be £18 an hour, a figure I'm certain all bus drivers would be more than happy to earn. A quick Google search shows the wages (particularly at former Terrier garage Holbrook) are considerably lower than that. Bus driving wages have very little to do with driver shortages. One of the biggest things driving staff away from the industry is the attitude of the public towards them, more so in Sheffield than other areas but still applies elsewhere. Try listening to the way the public talk to drivers and imagine putting up with that every day. Before anyone says that they are always polite, yes, some are, but lots are not. Having driven buses for over 40 years I gave up my PCV entitlement a few years ago and took a lower paid job where I am spoken to politely, often by the same people who are rude to bus drivers. No amount of money would coax me back. Being a current bus driver myself, I agree 100% with regards to the public comment, however I think more people would be willing to put up with it if they were earning a reasonable wage to do so. Wages do however play a massive part in driver shortages - you cannot argue that if the wages were higher, more people would do the job. |
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