ZEBRA 2 (Read 2,038 times)

[rothlad]

Current reported bids locally for ZEBRA 2:

First South Yorkshire
120 Single/Double deck vehicles for Doncaster depot to turn this depot into 100% Electric fleet.

Stagecoach Yorkshire
65 Double deck vehicles for services 1, 52, 88 and 120 in Sheffield.
57 Single deck/Double deck vehicles for services 43, 43A, 44, 50, 50A, X17 and the local Chesterfield town network.

Awaiting details on funding and awards from DfT.

[crossscythe]

Stagecoach has just taken on a large fleet of double decker buses for routes 120 and 52. Why the heck would they be looking at sourcing more?!

[teapot42]

Jan 27, 2024 11:52:52 GMT rothlad said:

Current reported bids locally for ZEBRA 2:

Stagecoach Yorkshire
57 Single deck/Double deck vehicles for services 43, 43A, 44, 50, 50A, X17 and the local Chesterfield town network.

Awaiting details on funding and awards from DfT.

Not including the open toppers, Chesterfield seems to have 83 buses so that's a decent chunk of the total allocation being replaced. I wonder what they mean by the local Chesterfield town network though as we don't really have one any more. I can only think of the 5 (1 bus), 25 (which interworks with the 43/44/50 anyway) and the 39. Anything else only serves town coincidentally to the rest of the route. Would be interesting to see what they choose though - the proliferation of parked cars means something like the E100EV could be a good choice.

One thing I do wonder is how many 'spare' electrics they will need to allow for ones being charged. And whether there will also be changes to services to allow for this. For example, the X17 route is around 40 miles each way. A fair chunk it at higher speeds (Matlock to Chesterfield, Whittington Moor to Bowshaw and Meadowhall to Tankersley) which I'd imagine would impact range(?) Depending on range you might just get 3 round trips but I'd imagine two would be more likely. The existing buses seem to do 3-4 round trips so I can't see them doing a full day without needing charging. Unless they are expecting passengers to change bus at Chesterfield so they can take one out of service to charge they'll need to install charging infrastructure at Barnsley and / or Matlock, plus work out how to alter the timetable to allow for a bus being out of service for long enough to top off to complete the day.

As an aside to all this, how does this funding work for buses that are intended to run cross-LTA-border services? These buses will be based on Derbyshire but will operate at least as much mileage in South Yorkshire as they do in Derbyshire. As such, I'd imagine the bid must be joint between Derbyshire and South Yorkshire?

[teapot42]

Mar 5, 2024 0:51:45 GMT crossscythe said:

Stagecoach has just taken on a large fleet of double decker buses for routes 120 and 52. Why the heck would they be looking at sourcing more?!

If you look at the current fleet, they have plenty which are getting towards the end of their working life. There are the E400Hs which are 12-13 years old now and which I've seen posted elsewhere are starting to have issues with the hybrid system which aren't viable to fix. Looks like 27 at Holbrook. There are other E400s between Ecclesfield and Holbrook which are up to 14 years old now so again getting towards the end of their life and will need replacing by something in the near future. Anything left over which is still serviceable can always be cascaded to other divisions or sold off to smaller operators.

It's not really a bad move by Stagecoach to get buses which will be cheaper to operate at no more cost than replacing these with diesel vehicles.

[mojoe44]

Mar 5, 2024 9:02:19 GMT teapot42 said:

Jan 27, 2024 11:52:52 GMT rothlad said:

Current reported bids locally for ZEBRA 2:

Stagecoach Yorkshire
57 Single deck/Double deck vehicles for services 43, 43A, 44, 50, 50A, X17 and the local Chesterfield town network.

Awaiting details on funding and awards from DfT.

Not including the open toppers, Chesterfield seems to have 83 buses so that's a decent chunk of the total allocation being replaced. I wonder what they mean by the local Chesterfield town network though as we don't really have one any more. I can only think of the 5 (1 bus), 25 (which interworks with the 43/44/50 anyway) and the 39. Anything else only serves town coincidentally to the rest of the route. Would be interesting to see what they choose though - the proliferation of parked cars means something like the E100EV could be a good choice.

One thing I do wonder is how many 'spare' electrics they will need to allow for ones being charged. And whether there will also be changes to services to allow for this. For example, the X17 route is around 40 miles each way. A fair chunk it at higher speeds (Matlock to Chesterfield, Whittington Moor to Bowshaw and Meadowhall to Tankersley) which I'd imagine would impact range(?) Depending on range you might just get 3 round trips but I'd imagine two would be more likely. The existing buses seem to do 3-4 round trips so I can't see them doing a full day without needing charging. Unless they are expecting passengers to change bus at Chesterfield so they can take one out of service to charge they'll need to install charging infrastructure at Barnsley and / or Matlock, plus work out how to alter the timetable to allow for a bus being out of service for long enough to top off to complete the day.

As an aside to all this, how does this funding work for buses that are intended to run cross-LTA-border services? These buses will be based on Derbyshire but will operate at least as much mileage in South Yorkshire as they do in Derbyshire. As such, I'd imagine the bid must be joint between Derbyshire and South Yorkshire?

The Chesterfield bid is for 57 buses which is the current PVR at Stonegravels excluding the x17, peak sighsteer, and the dupe on the 583 Bolsover school bus. I assume that as you say electric buses wouldn't be able to do a full day on the x17 yet so that would remain operated by the current diesel gold deckers. As for cross border bids I don't know, but it sounds as though South Yorkshire aren't involved from the way it's reported on the Derbyshire council website, but that may just be politics. I'd be surprised if either bid is fully successful though, it would mean 15% of the ZEBRA funding for all operators nationally going to Stagecoach Yorkshire.

[teapot42]

All places I've seen which report this bid include the X17 so it does seem as if the intention is to convert that to electric. Also, some of the Gold buses are getting older at 59 reg, although these don't seem to be seen on the X17 very often.

With the limited detail we have I was assuming things like the 74 / 77 / 51 / 54 and also the more rural services such as the 15/16/48/49/65/158/159/160 would stay diesel.

57 seems low for the services run out of Stonegravels, and of the 83 buses I counted listed on Bustimes as operating out of there, less than 10 hadn't tracked in the last day or so. Of course bustimes could well be wrong and I didn't spend the time to check those showing as based at Chesterfield were actually operating Chesterfield services.

Considering Stagecoach in the past haven't invested massively in Chesterfield, mainly cascading older stuff from other divisions, it does seem speculative to bid for this much. In a way it's also disappointing as they aren't taking the opportunity to take a good look at what services they provide here and coming up with some better solutions.

The government page suggests and LTA can only be involved in one bid so if the Sheffield one is separate then they can't be involved with the Derbyshire one. I wasn't sure if it was one bid or two. It might raise a few questions why Derbyshire are supporting a bid that aids South Yorkshire when they have their own bid in.

[crossscythe]

Mar 5, 2024 13:51:24 GMT teapot42 said:

All places I've seen which report this bid include the X17 so it does seem as if the intention is to convert that to electric. Also, some of the Gold buses are getting older at 59 reg, although these don't seem to be seen on the X17 very often.

With the limited detail we have I was assuming things like the 74 / 77 / 51 / 54 and also the more rural services such as the 15/16/48/49/65/158/159/160 would stay diesel.

57 seems low for the services run out of Stonegravels, and of the 83 buses I counted listed on Bustimes as operating out of there, less than 10 hadn't tracked in the last day or so. Of course bustimes could well be wrong and I didn't spend the time to check those showing as based at Chesterfield were actually operating Chesterfield services.

Considering Stagecoach in the past haven't invested massively in Chesterfield, mainly cascading older stuff from other divisions, it does seem speculative to bid for this much. In a way it's also disappointing as they aren't taking the opportunity to take a good look at what services they provide here and coming up with some better solutions.

The government page suggests and LTA can only be involved in one bid so if the Sheffield one is separate then they can't be involved with the Derbyshire one. I wasn't sure if it was one bid or two. It might raise a few questions why Derbyshire are supporting a bid that aids South Yorkshire when they have their own bid in.

I wouldn't fancy being stranded on the X17 when the battery goes flat due to a diversion in the arse end of nowhere.

[ady1977]

when are all these new buses due for chesterfield?

[syjunkie]

Mar 6, 2024 16:13:43 GMT ady1977 said:

when are all these new buses due for chesterfield?

It's a bid that's been put in but hasn't been confirmed as of yet

[rothlad]

Mar 5, 2024 9:02:19 GMT teapot42 said:

Jan 27, 2024 11:52:52 GMT rothlad said:

Current reported bids locally for ZEBRA 2:

Stagecoach Yorkshire
57 Single deck/Double deck vehicles for services 43, 43A, 44, 50, 50A, X17 and the local Chesterfield town network.

Awaiting details on funding and awards from DfT.

Not including the open toppers, Chesterfield seems to have 83 buses so that's a decent chunk of the total allocation being replaced. I wonder what they mean by the local Chesterfield town network though as we don't really have one any more. I can only think of the 5 (1 bus), 25 (which interworks with the 43/44/50 anyway) and the 39. Anything else only serves town coincidentally to the rest of the route. Would be interesting to see what they choose though - the proliferation of parked cars means something like the E100EV could be a good choice.

One thing I do wonder is how many 'spare' electrics they will need to allow for ones being charged. And whether there will also be changes to services to allow for this. For example, the X17 route is around 40 miles each way. A fair chunk it at higher speeds (Matlock to Chesterfield, Whittington Moor to Bowshaw and Meadowhall to Tankersley) which I'd imagine would impact range(?) Depending on range you might just get 3 round trips but I'd imagine two would be more likely. The existing buses seem to do 3-4 round trips so I can't see them doing a full day without needing charging. Unless they are expecting passengers to change bus at Chesterfield so they can take one out of service to charge they'll need to install charging infrastructure at Barnsley and / or Matlock, plus work out how to alter the timetable to allow for a bus being out of service for long enough to top off to complete the day.

As an aside to all this, how does this funding work for buses that are intended to run cross-LTA-border services? These buses will be based on Derbyshire but will operate at least as much mileage in South Yorkshire as they do in Derbyshire. As such, I'd imagine the bid must be joint between Derbyshire and South Yorkshire?

The DCC and SYMCA bids remain wholly separate. It's just fortunate that the DCC bid also includes cross-boundary services into South Yorkshire.

[teapot42]

Well, not just cross-boundary services. Unless the route changes again, the 43a runs entirely within Sheffield but is operated by Chesterfield vehicles and will be one of these new electric buses.

In some ways I'd prefer to see DCC supporting a bid which had more impact on Derbyshire. While there is a lot of cross-border traffic, there are plenty of other services which would benefit which are more within the county. Indeed, there is a specific provision within Zebra2 for rural services of which there are quite a lot in Derbyshire, but they get no mention in the bid.

[mojoe44]

Stagecoach have been successful in their bid for 57 electric buses for Chesterfield. Initial plans are to use them on 1/1a, 5, 25, 39, 43, 44, 50, 51, 54, 74/74a, the two Chesterfield operated 77 diagrams, and the x17. Whilst not directly mentioned I assume 50a and 43a will also be operated by these electrics unless part of the plan is to change the way these routes interwork. Timescale is 18-24 months, no decisions made yet on manufacturer. No news from SYMCA yet whether or not the Holbrook and Ecclesfield bids have been successful.

ETA: Looks like Hull are the only Yorkshire region successful from what I've seen announced.

[teapot42]

Mar 22, 2024 9:57:21 GMT mojoe44 said:

Stagecoach have been successful in their bid for 57 electric buses for Chesterfield. Initial plans are to use them on 1/1a, 5, 25, 39, 43, 44, 50, 51, 54, 74/74a, the two Chesterfield operated 77 diagrams, and the x17.

Presumably 'a' variations of the 43, 50, 54 and 77 will be included? Also the 56a as that interworks with other services.

That only leaves contracted routes to stay with conventional buses, the 15/16, 48/49, 65/66 and the 157/8/9/60.

With one exception.... What about the 90/90a? Just an omission from the list, or is it next on the list of routes Stagecoach have decided they no longer want to operate?

Presumably also this means they are committed to staying at Stonegravels, considering the amount of work needed to electrify the depot for that many vehicles? In some ways I'm surprised they haven't considered building a new depot somewhere like Sheepbridge. Plenty of large sites from demolished factories there, could build a smaller depot more suitable for the current fleet, ideal for Peak Resort if that ever happens as I'd assume Stagecoach would be the obvious operator for the services from there, and the Stonegravels site would fit a lot of housing so the move would likely pay for itself with lower ongoing running costs.

[mojoe44]

Mar 22, 2024 11:22:57 GMT teapot42 said:

Mar 22, 2024 9:57:21 GMT mojoe44 said:

Stagecoach have been successful in their bid for 57 electric buses for Chesterfield. Initial plans are to use them on 1/1a, 5, 25, 39, 43, 44, 50, 51, 54, 74/74a, the two Chesterfield operated 77 diagrams, and the x17.

Presumably 'a' variations of the 43, 50, 54 and 77 will be included? Also the 56a as that interworks with other services.

That only leaves contracted routes to stay with conventional buses, the 15/16, 48/49, 65/66 and the 157/8/9/60.

With one exception.... What about the 90/90a? Just an omission from the list, or is it next on the list of routes Stagecoach have decided they no longer want to operate?

Presumably also this means they are committed to staying at Stonegravels, considering the amount of work needed to electrify the depot for that many vehicles? In some ways I'm surprised they haven't considered building a new depot somewhere like Sheepbridge. Plenty of large sites from demolished factories there, could build a smaller depot more suitable for the current fleet, ideal for Peak Resort if that ever happens as I'd assume Stagecoach would be the obvious operator for the services from there, and the Stonegravels site would fit a lot of housing so the move would likely pay for itself with lower ongoing running costs.

I assume the problem on the 90 is the bridge at Barrow Hill, as most electric single decks so far seem to be taller than a standard single deck. I'm guessing you're right about the routes that interwork and the variations as well, as long as the range on the electrics is enough to last a full days operation.

As for Stonegravels, they were looking for a larger premises than the coach station in chesterfield town centre for drivers breaks and office staff which fuelled rumours again that an out of town site would be used for the depot, Markham Vale was mentioned, but that seems to have cooled off now. As you say Stonegravels is an expensive depot to run, but recently they have been working on making it more energy efficient with new lighting, and work has been done on the cladding and roof. Two or three areas of the depot are now being rented out to other businesses, and the paint shop seems to be doing more contract work than ever, including a lot of the bee network repaints not just for Stagecoach, so it seems like there is a commitment to Stonegravels.

[teapot42]

Good point, I'd forgotten that bridge. It looks like the Enviro100EV would fit (just) and to be honest a smaller bus like that would probably suit routes like the 5/39/90. The E200EV is too tall by nearly a foot, while the Youtong E10 is just a few inches too tall. The obvious alternative would be to serve Barrow Hill as an extension of the 25 which would also make the 90 a bit more of a viable route as it winds a bit too much for anyone who needs to use it for any distance.

As I've posted elsewhere, I can't see anything that has the range for a full day on the X17, especially as I'd imagine quoted ranges are based on pottering around town at 20, not doing 50-60 on long runs as the X17 does. Slab fronted double deckers don't have the best aerodynamic properties to minimise energy consumption at speed.

(As an aside, I would love Stagecoach to have the ambition to run a parallel express service stopping at just Matlock, Chesterfield, Whittington Moor, Meadowhead, Sheffield Interchange, Meadowhall and Barnsley. The time they could shave off would make it more competitive against using the car and would stand a decent chance of winning custom as a result)

It actually looks like there is a similar large open site near Barrow Hill that would suit a depot, Markham Vale has plenty of space but both are a bit far from the centre. Sheepbridge has the benefit of many routes such as the 1/1a/25/50/43/44/X17 passing very close and is only a few minutes in to town.

There keeps being rumbles of building a proper bus station in Chesterfield. It really needs it, but there is no obvious site without better engagement from the council. I think they missed a trick with the Hollis Lane Link Road and the Northern Gateway - they could have closed the road past the Crooked Spire to all bus buses and access, diverted traffic past the station and used somewhere on the donut for a bus station. Indeed, now Poundstretcher is closing that would be an ideal site to redevelop, but it would be better if all non-bus traffic was taken away from the cross-town routes.