Proper tram train trial (Read 1,481 times)

[duncan]

The perfect supertram.
No expensive infrastructure, flexible operation, Mixed operators, segregated running, Exit points for problem times, quality operators, nicer colour scheme.
Cheap to build, virtually zero maintenance. No unsightly overheads.


link

[Deleted]

without that stupid narrow kerb the bus wouldn't have had to brake and could have just continued smoothly, tarmac would have been a lot cheaper


anyone seen the ZuidTangent from Haarlem to Amsterdam.. proper busway

[tofskilemons]

Not a very nice ride on these. Try driving on a concrete motorway, awful surface that deteriorates quickly. No use, these things will be awful in the coming years. Trams/trains are a lot smoother!

[duncan]

Oct 1, 2013 20:20:02 GMT @commuter said:

without that stupid narrow kerb the bus wouldn't have had to brake and could have just continued smoothly, tarmac would have been a lot cheaper


anyone seen the ZuidTangent from Haarlem to Amsterdam.. proper busway

Just a slow down for an entry / exit point. Only 2 of these on the length of it.rest of the time its high speed running.

[duncan]

Oct 2, 2013 8:17:36 GMT tofskilemons said:

Not a very nice ride on these. Try driving on a concrete motorway, awful surface that deteriorates quickly. No use, these things will be awful in the coming years. Trams/trains are a lot smoother!

Ride quality perfect on these, yes they are concrete but on a firmer base and much lighter use than a motorway. Cost of building is a tiny fraction of a tram train and much more flexible. Build time is a fraction of tram trains and ongoing maintenance costs are minimal.
Cambridge one is a perfect example of how it can work.

[Deleted]

why compare it with the cost of a tram or train, its a bus, an expensive bus, it has a driver who is perfectly capable of steering it, it needs tarmac, not a guideway

total waste of money and a brilliant example of "we spent millions so it must be better" mentality

[duncan]

Oct 2, 2013 21:43:19 GMT @commuter said:

why compare it with the cost of a tram or train, its a bus, an expensive bus, it has a driver who is perfectly capable of steering it, it needs tarmac, not a guideway

total waste of money and a brilliant example of "we spent millions so it must be better" mentality

It is an ALTERNATIVE to a tram and as such is an extremely viable one. Remember that it is US that pay for these schemes and I for one do not like the idea of paying over the odds for a vanity project like some that have been built.

A need was identified for a rapid transit system and many options were explored, the guided busway was found to be a tiny fraction of the cost of all the other options.

Yes the driver is capable of steering, but, given that the "track" is narrower than a normal road it is possible to travel at higher speeds in safety. The main infrastructure is virtually a "one off" payment. It is not an expensive bus, the difference between a guided bus and a conventional one in price is under £100 per vehicle. The guide-way requires only very minimal maintenance compared with a tramway. (Look at the chaos surrounding the current track replacement).
It also uses a dedicated roadway meaning other traffic is not penalised by the introduction of the scheme, it is actually advantaged by it as traffic is taken off the normal roads unlike Sheffield where trams have been shoe-horned into existing traffic and given an unfair advantage with road restrictions that cause chaos for other road users.
Those of us who pay taxes would be delighted if the cost of the Cambridge busway was substituted for the cost of the trams in Sheffield. Yes I know it was written off by Government, but in real terms that means we are paying for it out of taxes instead of council tax. The other major advantage is that city centres do not need to be ripped up to allow cumbersome, slow trams to negotiate the streets.

Another advantage is the lack of a need for "feeder" services as they are in fact their own "feeders".

A classic example of look at those silly buggers spending millions and we got just as good for thousands mentality.

Well done to Luton borough Council and Cambridgeshire council for looking after their budgets responsibly.

SYPTE are you watching?

[tofskilemons]

www.noguidedbus.com/

Have a look on here, it outlines several of the flaws experienced with building the Cambridge Busway. It is a good idea, however I still think they aren't a good solution. There are a lot of complaints about the Cambridge one, notably as I mentioned before, the ride. It ran massively over budget, and some say that it would have been cheaper in the end to re-open the line as a light rail or indeed heavy rail venture. The Supertram here in Sheffield hasn't had that many issues in the last few years, the only problem being the track which from new wasn't up to standard and wore much quicker than expected, hence the need for the sudden replacement.

The other option would be, why bother with all these concrete tracks? The bus has a steering wheel, it's that strange round object in front of where he sits ans uses it when not on the guided section. Why not just build a cheaper, all tarmac section? He can steer, after all, he is being paid to drive the bus. part of driving includes steering...

Like I say, not a bad proposition Duncan, however for me it's still rail all the way.

[woah]

I think the main problem with a busway in Sheffield would be - where would it go? I think the busway idea as a whole is great and brings a lot of the benefits that the tram in Sheffield does for a lot less cost, but there needs to be suitable places for it to run with useful destinations and stops. Just on another note to reference the post above, I don't think the fact that the Cambridge Busway came in over budget is a basis on which to judge any other busway project.

I have mixed thoughts on the tram - as a driver, they can be nuisance and tend to get in the way in traffic jams and taking priority at traffic lights. I get fed up of this myself living fairly close to the tram. However, I know a lot of people who dislike buses but are more than happy to get the tram, because it is reliable (thanks to traffic light priority and off street running), it is comfortable, there is more space on board than on a bus, and it is easier to board than a bus. I would agree with them.

For those that have good access to tram stops it is an easier and more pleasant way of travelling than a bus, and that is why it's a successful service with 15 million passengers a year. Yes it cost much more than a busway, and yes there is a lot more infrastructure to maintain, but a busway in Sheffield is not realistic and the tram brings the benefit of them and more.

[Deleted]

Oct 3, 2013 13:44:56 GMT tofskilemons said:

www.noguidedbus.com/

Have a look on here, it outlines several of the flaws experienced with building the Cambridge Busway. It is a good idea, however I still think they aren't a good solution. There are a lot of complaints about the Cambridge one, notably as I mentioned before, the ride. It ran massively over budget, and some say that it would have been cheaper in the end to re-open the line as a light rail or indeed heavy rail venture. The Supertram here in Sheffield hasn't had that many issues in the last few years, the only problem being the track which from new wasn't up to standard and wore much quicker than expected, hence the need for the sudden replacement.

The other option would be, why bother with all these concrete tracks? The bus has a steering wheel, it's that strange round object in front of where he sits ans uses it when not on the guided section. Why not just build a cheaper, all tarmac section? He can steer, after all, he is being paid to drive the bus. part of driving includes steering...

Like I say, not a bad proposition Duncan, however for me it's still rail all the way.

I think supertram have known the the track was poor from the off.

I was working on the tram when the fault on the bridge between the delta and hyde park materialised around late 1999. That repair took months all because there wasn't enough concrete under track. Makes you wonder what other faults will come out in time

I must say that the front bogie dropped with an almighty bang!

[tofskilemons]

Oct 3, 2013 20:00:47 GMT @mainline2458 said:

Oct 3, 2013 13:44:56 GMT tofskilemons said:

www.noguidedbus.com/

Have a look on here, it outlines several of the flaws experienced with building the Cambridge Busway. It is a good idea, however I still think they aren't a good solution. There are a lot of complaints about the Cambridge one, notably as I mentioned before, the ride. It ran massively over budget, and some say that it would have been cheaper in the end to re-open the line as a light rail or indeed heavy rail venture. The Supertram here in Sheffield hasn't had that many issues in the last few years, the only problem being the track which from new wasn't up to standard and wore much quicker than expected, hence the need for the sudden replacement.

The other option would be, why bother with all these concrete tracks? The bus has a steering wheel, it's that strange round object in front of where he sits ans uses it when not on the guided section. Why not just build a cheaper, all tarmac section? He can steer, after all, he is being paid to drive the bus. part of driving includes steering...

Like I say, not a bad proposition Duncan, however for me it's still rail all the way.

I think supertram have known the the track was poor from the off.

I was working on the tram when the fault on the bridge between the delta and hyde park materialised around late 1999. That repair took months all because there wasn't enough concrete under track. Makes you wonder what other faults will come out in time

I must say that the front bogie dropped with an almighty bang!

Good old Balfour Beatty knock off job that was, I think the Meadowhall stretch will throw up plenty of surprises.
You're right though, it has been know since it was installed.

[Deleted]

Oct 3, 2013 20:52:03 GMT tofskilemons said:

Oct 3, 2013 20:00:47 GMT @mainline2458 said:

I think supertram have known the the track was poor from the off.

I was working on the tram when the fault on the bridge between the delta and hyde park materialised around late 1999. That repair took months all because there wasn't enough concrete under track. Makes you wonder what other faults will come out in time

I must say that the front bogie dropped with an almighty bang!

Good old Balfour Beatty knock off job that was, I think the Meadowhall stretch will throw up plenty of surprises.
You're right though, it has been know since it was installed.

Can't comment about workmanship cos my uncle works for balford beatty rail!!!!


Personal opinion here but when I worked there certain drivers used to take the points at the outbound Arena stop too fast. There was a slight dip and I used to hold on for grim life and the bogies clattered like mad. Nowadays, even with the gentle drivers these days you can feel something and I'd reckon they will be the first to fail and need replacing.