Hulley's (Read 4,300 times)

[teapot42]

Mar 25, 2024 13:19:28 GMT The Captain said:

Best outcome for Killamarsh is to extend a 7 every hour from the Peaks, there's usually half an hour overlap in the daytime in the depot at Holbrook for driver takeovers.

Maybe merge that with the Clowne 74. Improve that to hourly, gives links to Renishaw as well and anyone wanting Chesterfield can change at Clowne?

[The Captain]

Mar 25, 2024 19:29:43 GMT teapot42 said:

Mar 25, 2024 13:19:28 GMT The Captain said:

Best outcome for Killamarsh is to extend a 7 every hour from the Peaks, there's usually half an hour overlap in the daytime in the depot at Holbrook for driver takeovers.

Maybe merge that with the Clowne 74. Improve that to hourly, gives links to Renishaw as well and anyone wanting Chesterfield can change at Clowne?

Clowne services are totally funded by DCC, apart from the 1028 from Clowne on the odd days and the inclusion of the 130 Eckington to Base Green school bus AM/PM it is rare to get double digits on any trip.
77 does a great job linking up Clowne and Barlborough to Chesterfield, that would make more sense looking at linking up Renishaw with Mastin Moor and Chesterfield rather than going down Worksop Rd to the crossroads and Norbriggs.

[teapot42]

Mar 25, 2024 23:12:48 GMT The Captain said:

Mar 25, 2024 19:29:43 GMT teapot42 said:

Maybe merge that with the Clowne 74. Improve that to hourly, gives links to Renishaw as well and anyone wanting Chesterfield can change at Clowne?

Clowne services are totally funded by DCC, apart from the 1028 from Clowne on the odd days and the inclusion of the 130 Eckington to Base Green school bus AM/PM it is rare to get double digits on any trip.
77 does a great job linking up Clowne and Barlborough to Chesterfield, that would make more sense looking at linking up Renishaw with Mastin Moor and Chesterfield rather than going down Worksop Rd to the crossroads and Norbriggs.

I suspect anything serving Renishaw and Killamarsh would probably end up with DCC funding anyway.

The 74/74a (Chesterfield one - why on earth are there two services with the same number running so close to each other?) would be hard to extend and not lose some convenience. It does a loop around Mastin Moor and Woodthorpe so if one was extended to Renishaw you'd loose that loop and would end up with an one hourly service. Also, based on the 80 timings it doesn't look like an hour is enough to get all the way to Crystal Peaks.

There does also seem to be some concern from people affected that they will lose a direct link to the hospital. Might have merit, but plenty of larger areas also don't have a direct link and there are 5x hourly from the centre of Chesterfield.

Maybe another option is to use Staveley as a hub and have the buses which serve Mastin Moor (off the main road), Woodthorpe, Renishaw and Killamarsh terminate there for onwards connections?

[dougie]

The 74 seems to work fine as it is, four journeys a day (plus a couple of 73s and the Clowne local stuff plus a school run) seems a fair day’s work for one vehicle

The bigger problem for me is the Killamarsh-Peaks link.

I honestly thought that, given the long running SL to Stocksbridge (at the time), the SL3 would work well, especially as its terminus meant that it functioned fine for non-tram passengers just heading to the” destination” of Crystal Peaks (whereas Middlewood and Malin Bridge were only really useful for connecting to trams)

It’s a corridor that’s seen a mishmash of various longer distance routes the years, culminating in the Stagecoach 72/80 all the way from Sheffield to Chesterfield, which ticked several boxes by being a direct service without really being particularly fast between any two major points. Eventually that was unviable, hence Killamarsh surviving on relatively infrequent routes like the 26/26a/74

Maybe demand just wouldn’t be there off-peak (and at peak times, there are plenty of other routes that also want capacity), but it’s a shame that nothing seems to work, hence the recent situation where Hulleys, TM and Stagecoach all provide something without anyone really providing much

[teapot42]

Mar 26, 2024 15:39:08 GMT dougie said:

The 74 seems to work fine as it is, four journeys a day (plus a couple of 73s and the Clowne local stuff plus a school run) seems a fair day’s work for one vehicle

The bigger problem for me is the Killamarsh-Peaks link.

I honestly thought that, given the long running SL to Stocksbridge (at the time), the SL3 would work well, especially as its terminus meant that it functioned fine for non-tram passengers just heading to the” destination” of Crystal Peaks (whereas Middlewood and Malin Bridge were only really useful for connecting to trams)

It’s a corridor that’s seen a mishmash of various longer distance routes the years, culminating in the Stagecoach 72/80 all the way from Sheffield to Chesterfield, which ticked several boxes by being a direct service without really being particularly fast between any two major points. Eventually that was unviable, hence Killamarsh surviving on relatively infrequent routes like the 26/26a/74

Maybe demand just wouldn’t be there off-peak (and at peak times, there are plenty of other routes that also want capacity), but it’s a shame that nothing seems to work, hence the recent situation where Hulleys, TM and Stagecoach all provide something without anyone really providing much

I guess Killamarsh is also oddly located in relation to nearby larger places. Being in Derbyshire, the obvious link to fund would be to Chesterfield, but all the recent options have been so slow I'm not surprised no-one uses them. Sheffield is probably a bigger draw for most, but funding cross-border services is always tricky. Much of it also sits off the main road corridor.

 

Both the Stagecoach and Hulleys variants of the 80 were just too circuitous to be viable other than for short local journeys. The 80 to Brimington Common was probably a sensible route and I'm surprised Hulleys haven't kept at least that bit. I could actually see a fast link to Sheffield working that way, Royal Hospital, Staveley, Clowne, Killamarsh, Halfway, Crystal Peaks then fast to the Interchange. But that doesn't really solve the problem of serving a wider part of Killamarsh, never mind Renishaw, Spinkhill and so on.

There is similarly a large part of Barlborough which is poorly served, around Oxcroft Way. I'd imagine there would be demand there even from people going to Dobbies. Almost comes back to something I raised a while back, whether having a network of fast buses on the main routes which link to slower ones that serve the villages and edges of towns wouldn't be a more attractive option. Changing is never ideal, but being on a bus that goes around the houses isn't fun either.

[duncan]

Apr 2, 2024 8:56:43 GMT teapot42 said:

Mar 26, 2024 15:39:08 GMT dougie said:

The 74 seems to work fine as it is, four journeys a day (plus a couple of 73s and the Clowne local stuff plus a school run) seems a fair day’s work for one vehicle

The bigger problem for me is the Killamarsh-Peaks link.

I honestly thought that, given the long running SL to Stocksbridge (at the time), the SL3 would work well, especially as its terminus meant that it functioned fine for non-tram passengers just heading to the” destination” of Crystal Peaks (whereas Middlewood and Malin Bridge were only really useful for connecting to trams)

It’s a corridor that’s seen a mishmash of various longer distance routes the years, culminating in the Stagecoach 72/80 all the way from Sheffield to Chesterfield, which ticked several boxes by being a direct service without really being particularly fast between any two major points. Eventually that was unviable, hence Killamarsh surviving on relatively infrequent routes like the 26/26a/74

Maybe demand just wouldn’t be there off-peak (and at peak times, there are plenty of other routes that also want capacity), but it’s a shame that nothing seems to work, hence the recent situation where Hulleys, TM and Stagecoach all provide something without anyone really providing much

I guess Killamarsh is also oddly located in relation to nearby larger places. Being in Derbyshire, the obvious link to fund would be to Chesterfield, but all the recent options have been so slow I'm not surprised no-one uses them. Sheffield is probably a bigger draw for most, but funding cross-border services is always tricky. Much of it also sits off the main road corridor.

 

Both the Stagecoach and Hulleys variants of the 80 were just too circuitous to be viable other than for short local journeys. The 80 to Brimington Common was probably a sensible route and I'm surprised Hulleys haven't kept at least that bit. I could actually see a fast link to Sheffield working that way, Royal Hospital, Staveley, Clowne, Killamarsh, Halfway, Crystal Peaks then fast to the Interchange. But that doesn't really solve the problem of serving a wider part of Killamarsh, never mind Renishaw, Spinkhill and so on.

There is similarly a large part of Barlborough which is poorly served, around Oxcroft Way. I'd imagine there would be demand there even from people going to Dobbies. Almost comes back to something I raised a while back, whether having a network of fast buses on the main routes which link to slower ones that serve the villages and edges of towns wouldn't be a more attractive option. Changing is never ideal, but being on a bus that goes around the houses isn't fun either.

I do find this sort of post amusing when we look at the rest of the UK and see how they are faring. Recent figures show that Derbyshire is doing much better than most areas where council funding for bus services has been slashed by local government with figures for lost services hitting 98% in some areas. This is the same local governments that want to "take control" of buses to amongst other things curb the reductions in services.

[teapot42]

Apr 2, 2024 13:23:14 GMT duncan said:

I do find this sort of post amusing when we look at the rest of the UK and see how they are faring. Recent figures show that Derbyshire is doing much better than most areas where council funding for bus services has been slashed by local government with figures for lost services hitting 98% in some areas. This is the same local governments that want to "take control" of buses to amongst other things curb the reductions in services.

It is worrying that we should think ourselves lucky when the service is as poor as it is. I've got some concerns as to how well DCC are spending their money, but that's partly driven by the fact our local service was cut back to allow others to be 'improved'.

I wonder also if the lack of alternative options means the money isn't used as effectively as it could be. Stagecoach seem to be the picking up most council tenders of late and they won't be the cheapest option to do so. However, it gets more complicated when you factor in ticketing. Anyone who travels much is likely to have a Megarider for example, so having Stagecoach operate tendered services is a better option for them. Does that impact how much subsidy DCC has to pay though? Stagecoach will derive very little revenue from a Megarider journey for example, so does that mean DCC need to top up more? Or if the amount they pay regardless of takings?

I actually wonder if DCC could do more with the Wayfarer to encourage travel. It's significantly more expensive than a Dayrider for example, while in Sheffield there is less difference between the operator-specific tickets and the all-operators ones. It also only covers travel in to Sheffield city centre from Derbyshire. If they could work with SYPTE to have some mutual acceptance that might help. Allowing use on city-centre trams and buses for example, or having an option to go out to Meadowhall.

[ady1977]

is there any news yet of who will be taking over the 80

[teapot42]

Apr 2, 2024 15:16:51 GMT ady1977 said:

is there any news yet of who will be taking over the 80

Nothing I've seen. Knowing how keen DCC are to keep us up to date, I'd estimate they will publish new timetables around the middle of May.

(Yes, I know Hulleys stop running it from the 11th...)

I suspect there won't be a full replacement for the 80, just extensions and diversions of other routes to cover the various sections.

[alemaster]

For Chesterfield to Killamarsh the journey time is excessive, making it unattractive to passengers and the long route of the 80 through to Crystal Peaks has unreliability built in from tight turnarounds. One bus an hour isn't a particularly attractive frequency either.

Perhaps increase the 80 service to half hourly but with alternate journeys doing Eckington to Killmarsh more directly via Halfway instead of Renishaw. Terminate the service at Killamarsh rather than running through to Peaks. At the other end terminate in Chesterfield town centre. This would make the route shorter and hopefully more reliable as a result.

Buses 26/26a and to a very limited extent 74 connect Killamarsh with Crystal Peaks, however the 26/26a only runs down the main road along the bottom of Killamarsh and doesn't venture into the other residential parts of the town. Is there potential for the 73/74 to be extended through to Sheffield and run more trips per day? This would also fill some gaps in the infrequent service 53 from Clowne, Barlborough and Renishaw.

Serving the area is complicated - the demand is split in various different directions and of course it all sits on the border of Derbyshire and South Yorkshire with local authorities being very parochial!

[Mainline]

Apr 7, 2024 17:52:37 GMT alemaster said:

For Chesterfield to Killamarsh the journey time is excessive, making it unattractive to passengers and the long route of the 80 through to Crystal Peaks has unreliability built in from tight turnarounds. One bus an hour isn't a particularly attractive frequency either.

Perhaps increase the 80 service to half hourly but with alternate journeys doing Eckington to Killmarsh more directly via Halfway instead of Renishaw. Terminate the service at Killamarsh rather than running through to Peaks. At the other end terminate in Chesterfield town centre. This would make the route shorter and hopefully more reliable as a result.

Buses 26/26a and to a very limited extent 74 connect Killamarsh with Crystal Peaks, however the 26/26a only runs down the main road along the bottom of Killamarsh and doesn't venture into the other residential parts of the town. Is there potential for the 73/74 to be extended through to Sheffield and run more trips per day? This would also fill some gaps in the infrequent service 53 from Clowne, Barlborough and Renishaw.

Serving the area is complicated - the demand is split in various different directions and of course it all sits on the border of Derbyshire and South Yorkshire with local authorities being very parochial!

I think rather than extending current low-frequency routes, other routes could be extended. 

Some ideas:
7 - extend from Crystal Peaks to Killamash.
8 - extend from Birley through to Killamarsh via Crystal Peaks.
11 - extend from Herdings to Spinkhill via Ridgeway, Mosborough, Killamarsh, and Killamarsh (also restores bus route along Station Road and an additional route through Mosborough, Ridgeway, and Gleadless).
41 - extend from Frecheville to Killamarsh via Crystal Peaks.

Plenty of options and ideas that could be used and could work, limited only by passenger numbers.

        

[teapot42]

Apr 7, 2024 19:13:37 GMT Mainline said:

I think rather than extending current low-frequency routes, other routes could be extended.
        

I suspect only occasional journeys of a higher frequency route would get extended which would be more confusing that helpful.

Not totally sure it would be the best use of resources, and it would slightly reduce the extent of coverage in Killamarsh, but looking at running times it is possible to extend the second 90 to Clowne then on to Crystal Peaks in place of the 74. Indeed, you'd only be altering the timings by a handful of minutes.

The 90 that goes to Creswell could be routed to replace the 75 potentially, and only one extra bus would be needed to extend the 90 that way, so no net increase over currently, just the 74/75 comes from Holbrook and the 90 from Chesterfield.

You've got potential to change at Barlborough for Staveley and Chesterfield, Clowne for Creswell and Worksop and Markham Vale for Bolsover and the Royal Hospital. The overall journey without changing would be a lot slower - which partly shows how optimistic Hulleys timings were - but with a change it isn't massively longer and you are improving service for areas only the 74 previously covered.

[ady1977]

as there been any news on whos taking over the 80 ive seen on derbys service changes page that there will be service changes in may so dont know what other changes theres going to be unless anyone knows

[mojoe44]

Apr 9, 2024 17:42:34 GMT ady1977 said:

as there been any news on whos taking over the 80 ive seen on derbys service changes page that there will be service changes in may so dont know what other changes theres going to be unless anyone knows

Stagecoach will be operating it from 12th of May, they've been informed this afternoon. Not in it's current form though, it's described as "A two bus operation that will provide a broadly hourly service between Chesterfield and Killamarsh, daily including evenings." Exact route and timings are yet to be finalised, as apparently DCC issued tenders for seven different options ranging from one bus to four, with stagecoach putting bids in for all seven of them.

[ady1977]

wonder if it will go to the same route as before..are stagecoach making any changes to any other routes aswell or they just taking the 80 back on