donc
Inspector
Posts: 591 
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Post by donc on Aug 19, 2023 10:19:01 GMT
Commercial services are business ventures that the operators embark upon at their own financial risk. SYMCA are copied in on all registrations and cancellations and their job is to identify gaps in the network where a service is needed due to being essential to the community for economic and/or social reasons but aren't financially viable to operate commercially. They then have to find money to support those additional bus services and put it out to tender with operators bidding for the contract. Due to finances at SYMCA being tight the contracts are effectively being awarded in two batches this year - July for Monday-Saturday daytime services and October for evening & Sunday services. There are two issues really - demand has changed post Covid meaning a greater proportion of buses are no longer financially viable, but also operators nationally are also struggling with a shortage of drivers and some services have been cut simply due to a lack of resource rather than a lack of customers and for the same reason there are less bidders for the contracts. It is worth noting that the list posted on here might not be the complete list and also the specification from SYMCA is a minimum standard what they think the funding available can support - operators are free to suggest in their bids ways of going above and beyond commercially by using an alternative approach and in some parts of the City it may be the case that Derbyshire CC and SYMCA are looking to fund services that could be tied together with a better service running cross border provided with the combined funds. Hopefully I've got that right and not over simplified.. I'm sure someone will jump in and correct me if necessary. Thank you. I understand that, what I am thinking is, how many passengers per return trip justify a commercial service? No operator is going to turn down funding if it is offered, even if they have a full decker. How do they justify how much funding they need, and if passenger numbers increase, during the contract, how is that policed to ensure funding remains needed? I find it very hard to understand how the X1 for example does not cover it's own running costs in the daytime on a Sunday. Yet it is potentially being cut to 2 hourly in the evenings and Sundays to Maltby. I also wonder how an alleged half a billion pounds over five years is not enough to run a decent evening and Sunday network. Maybe I am looking at it in a too simplistic way? As I said in earlier I sat on 81 Armthorpe last Saturday evening 69461 full with a few standing yet this will be reduced to one an hour in October, if buses cannot make money from full buses they have a serious business model problem, the issue probably is most people have pre-bought tickets so even if it is full many may not have paid for that trip, if it was still pay on board single fare then I suspect there could be an argument for saying this trip made xx pounds so you don't need a subside but with weekly and monthly tickets the bus companies will just say we make most of out money from pre-bought tickets and that is for the whole of our services. |
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Post by alemaster on Aug 19, 2023 16:04:57 GMT
Commercial services are business ventures that the operators embark upon at their own financial risk. SYMCA are copied in on all registrations and cancellations and their job is to identify gaps in the network where a service is needed due to being essential to the community for economic and/or social reasons but aren't financially viable to operate commercially. They then have to find money to support those additional bus services and put it out to tender with operators bidding for the contract. Due to finances at SYMCA being tight the contracts are effectively being awarded in two batches this year - July for Monday-Saturday daytime services and October for evening & Sunday services. There are two issues really - demand has changed post Covid meaning a greater proportion of buses are no longer financially viable, but also operators nationally are also struggling with a shortage of drivers and some services have been cut simply due to a lack of resource rather than a lack of customers and for the same reason there are less bidders for the contracts. It is worth noting that the list posted on here might not be the complete list and also the specification from SYMCA is a minimum standard what they think the funding available can support - operators are free to suggest in their bids ways of going above and beyond commercially by using an alternative approach and in some parts of the City it may be the case that Derbyshire CC and SYMCA are looking to fund services that could be tied together with a better service running cross border provided with the combined funds. Hopefully I've got that right and not over simplified.. I'm sure someone will jump in and correct me if necessary. Thank you. I understand that, what I am thinking is, how many passengers per return trip justify a commercial service? No operator is going to turn down funding if it is offered, even if they have a full decker. How do they justify how much funding they need, and if passenger numbers increase, during the contract, how is that policed to ensure funding remains needed? I find it very hard to understand how the X1 for example does not cover it's own running costs in the daytime on a Sunday. Yet it is potentially being cut to 2 hourly in the evenings and Sundays to Maltby. I also wonder how an alleged half a billion pounds over five years is not enough to run a decent evening and Sunday network. Maybe I am looking at it in a too simplistic way? I'm not sure there's a simple rule involving numbers of passengers below which the bus service loses money and isn't viable - it will vary depending on how much the passengers are paying for a ticket to ride and how much the bus is costing to operate. The cost of operating buses like most things in the last few years has skyrocketed but fares haven't really increased in line with the high inflation, demand has changed post Covid too in terms of where and when people want to travel. It is also worth noting that some of the services First axed last year weren't cut because they were poorly used, it was because they didn't have enough drivers to operate them! I'd like to think operators aren't just cutting services in the hope SYMCA will pay them a subsidy to keep them going. There is a process, SYMCA need to establish there is an economic/social need for the bus service to exist to justify the funding and it is put out to competitive tender with all potential operators invited to bid for a contract to operate the service, typically for a 4 year period. |
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Post by simonk82701 on Aug 28, 2023 17:15:18 GMT
Caught the X1 August Bank holiday Monday from Meadowhall to Rotherham, there were only two free seats that I could see on the lower deck. If this is a regular occurrence, then I am afraid I don't see why any subsidy is required. If anything the service needs to be increased. The X78 also had quite a queue. I really would like to understand how First and Stagecoach try and justify further cuts to certain key services.
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Post by duncan on Aug 28, 2023 21:36:27 GMT
Caught the X1 August Bank holiday Monday from Meadowhall to Rotherham, there were only two free seats that I could see on the lower deck. If this is a regular occurrence, then I am afraid I don't see why any subsidy is required. If anything the service needs to be increased. The X78 also had quite a queue. I really would like to understand how First and Stagecoach try and justify further cuts to certain key services. So you saw a bus on the busiest part of the route and conveniently forget that it has come all the way from Sheffield and will return there with probably very light loads. You need to view its performance over its full length before making decisions on its viability. You also need to remember that the bus you saw had most likely run several lightly loaded trips before and after the one you saw. |
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Post by alemaster on Aug 30, 2023 17:55:57 GMT
Caught the X1 August Bank holiday Monday from Meadowhall to Rotherham, there were only two free seats that I could see on the lower deck. If this is a regular occurrence, then I am afraid I don't see why any subsidy is required. If anything the service needs to be increased. The X78 also had quite a queue. I really would like to understand how First and Stagecoach try and justify further cuts to certain key services. I think from the OP that it is the evening service on the Rotherham-Maltby section of route that is facing a service reduction. |
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Post by rothlad on Sept 15, 2023 15:20:10 GMT
Understand there has been some good news with relation to the contract awards by SYMCA. 42-day registration deadline is today.
Stagecoach have registered some trips commercial to maintain hourly evening/Sunday services on routes 1, 6, 11, 22X, 66, 218 and 221 in Barnsley and Rotherham. However, they have lost most of their evening/Sunday services in Sheffield to First. This includes services 1, 7, 25A, 83 and 86.
TM Travel have been successful in retaining the 30A and X54, alongside the newly introduced 9A and 42 services. Service 21 in Rotherham passes to Stagecoach Yorkshire evenings and Sundays.
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Post by simonk82701 on Sept 15, 2023 19:49:32 GMT
Understand there has been some good news with relation to the contract awards by SYMCA. 42-day registration deadline is today. Stagecoach have registered some trips commercial to maintain hourly evening/Sunday services on routes 1, 6, 11, 22X, 66, 218 and 221 in Barnsley and Rotherham. However, they have lost most of their evening/Sunday services in Sheffield to First. This includes services 1, 7, 25A, 83 and 86. TM Travel have been successful in retaining the 30A and X54, alongside the newly introduced 9A and 42 services. Service 21 in Rotherham passes to Stagecoach Yorkshire evenings and Sundays. Do you know, if this is all correct part of me is delighted and part of me is annoyed. First all but abandoned parts of Rotherham and Sheffield, saying driver shortages and not enough subsidy were to blame. Stagecoach stepped in. Thank you to them for that. Now First have started bidding again and want most of Sheffield's evening and Sunday work. Kind of stinks slightly. Interesting how Stagecoach seem to have discovered that some of their services should really be run commercially. How long before First realise the same about some of their services, I.e the X1 Hmm... |
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Post by dougie on Sept 16, 2023 8:53:49 GMT
As a taxpayer, I guess I want the best compliant bid to win, and I don’t think I have any particular love/hate for any one operator but (living in western Sheffield) we’ve seen First quit the evening 52a/120s (busy tired during the daytime, admittedly the Student market isn’t what it once was but they still serve Hospitals etc) with Stagecoach providing the only buses on the road at night… But now First are winning evening tenders on other routes
I want to see the Parson Cross timetables/map before I comment more on that but it feels a bit confusing
Shame you can’t have an hourly service on the 20 corridor from Parson Cross to Heeley with bi-hourly extensions to both Hemsworth and bradway (since the NGH link is surely more useful than through buses to Manor Park etc?)
Given the frequency reductions at the time when the £2 fare will be increasing, I worry about passenger numbers and whether there’s going to be a vicious circle of cuts ahead
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Post by simonk82701 on Sept 16, 2023 9:42:10 GMT
As a taxpayer, I guess I want the best compliant bid to win, and I don’t think I have any particular love/hate for any one operator but (living in western Sheffield) we’ve seen First quit the evening 52a/120s (busy tired during the daytime, admittedly the Student market isn’t what it once was but they still serve Hospitals etc) with Stagecoach providing the only buses on the road at night… But now First are winning evening tenders on other routes I want to see the Parson Cross timetables/map before I comment more on that but it feels a bit confusing Shame you can’t have an hourly service on the 20 corridor from Parson Cross to Heeley with bi-hourly extensions to both Hemsworth and bradway (since the NGH link is surely more useful than through buses to Manor Park etc?) Given the frequency reductions at the time when the £2 fare will be increasing, I worry about passenger numbers and whether there’s going to be a vicious circle of cuts ahead This is my argument. It's not about a love had relationship. It's about First being able to leave some people completely in the lurch, and then, a few months later, taking services from other operators, who had the decency to step in and at least attempt to clear up the mess First left behind. If we are being paid we will run it, if not sod you. Sorry that's just not right. One assumes they have undercut other operators to get this work. Fine, but don't just pull out of other work when things get a bit hard. Compromise should also be found, like SSY appear to be trying do. We will run one service ourselves at our own risk if SYMCA will run the next one. The contracts also need to be tightened in my view, so that if a bus is full at a particular time in the day, the subsidy is not paid. |
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Post by rothlad on Sept 30, 2023 11:57:04 GMT
As a taxpayer, I guess I want the best compliant bid to win, and I don’t think I have any particular love/hate for any one operator but (living in western Sheffield) we’ve seen First quit the evening 52a/120s (busy tired during the daytime, admittedly the Student market isn’t what it once was but they still serve Hospitals etc) with Stagecoach providing the only buses on the road at night… But now First are winning evening tenders on other routes I want to see the Parson Cross timetables/map before I comment more on that but it feels a bit confusing Shame you can’t have an hourly service on the 20 corridor from Parson Cross to Heeley with bi-hourly extensions to both Hemsworth and bradway (since the NGH link is surely more useful than through buses to Manor Park etc?) Given the frequency reductions at the time when the £2 fare will be increasing, I worry about passenger numbers and whether there’s going to be a vicious circle of cuts ahead 20A/25A option now won't occur. There are several services which will be enhanced from the 2-hrly service on a commercial basis. This includes: 1A High Green to Chapeltown (then on to Sheffield and Herdings) 10 Doncaster to Maltby 15 Edlington to Clay Lane 20 Ecclesfield to Hemsworth 51 Charnock to Lodge Moor 54 Doncaster to Woodlands 55/56 Doncaster to Rossington 57A Doncaster to Doncaster Sheffield Airport 66 Bentley to Intake 75/76 Shiregreen to Batemoor/Low Edges 95/95A Meadowhall to Walkley 97/98 Hillsborough to Totley/Totley Brook 115 Rotherham to East Herringthorpe X1 Sheffield to Maltby X5 Sheffield to Dinnington |
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Post by alemaster on Oct 5, 2023 15:34:22 GMT
Just looked at travel to Harthill on Sundays....
- X54 and X5 leave Sheffield Interchange at the same time
- X54 and 21 run between Kiveton Park and Harthill almost at the same time, both once every 2 hours.
Ideally there would be some co-ordination between the 21/X54 to offer hourly departures from Harthill with the 21 connecting into the X5 for Sheffield (and same in reverse)!
Lack up of joined up thinking here.
Elsewhere its a shame that those areas that lost evening/Sunday services last year haven't got them back either - for example no evening service to Bradway (SYMCA pays for the 25 to run at the Woodhouse end which also has the 24 but nothing at the Bradway end) and no Sunday service to Wisewood/Loxley.
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Post by rothlad on Oct 13, 2023 8:55:11 GMT
Just looked at travel to Harthill on Sundays.... - X54 and X5 leave Sheffield Interchange at the same time - X54 and 21 run between Kiveton Park and Harthill almost at the same time, both once every 2 hours. Ideally there would be some co-ordination between the 21/X54 to offer hourly departures from Harthill with the 21 connecting into the X5 for Sheffield (and same in reverse)! Lack up of joined up thinking here. Elsewhere its a shame that those areas that lost evening/Sunday services last year haven't got them back either - for example no evening service to Bradway (SYMCA pays for the 25 to run at the Woodhouse end which also has the 24 but nothing at the Bradway end) and no Sunday service to Wisewood/Loxley. I believe this has come about as a result of the X5 being enhanced to hourly. The original plan was for hourly co-ordinated services from Sheffield - Swallownest and vice versa with service X54. Now we've seen the enhancement of the X5 on the same departures as the X54 - but due to short notice and rostering/duty compilation it's understandable if TM Travel can't change the running times on the X54 to try and provide some gap between the X5/X54. 21 is a little more complex, as this works around the 19A/207 to provide a half-hourly frequency to RDGH/Whiston and with service 73 to provide a hourly combined service to Brinsworth from both Rotherham and Sheffield. Believe the X54 was timed on the opposite hour to the 73 out of Sheffield to maintain a hourly frequency to Waverley/Treeton... Now you can see the problem - 1 slight change and it can cause a major issue with the combined service provision. |
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Post by rothlad on Oct 13, 2023 8:56:24 GMT
1/1A issue now resolved in High Green. Service 1 will operate 2-hrly between Sheffield and High Green Monday to Saturday evenings. Sundays service 1A will extend from Chapeltown to High Green, every half-hour during the daytime and 2-hrly in the evenings.
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Post by bususer on Oct 18, 2023 15:38:43 GMT
Had it confirmed - reasoning behind some of the changes in Sheffield are due to frequency alterations (such as the 20). This is due to the requirement for major hospitals and employment locations remaining at hourly frequencies. Residential services require a 2hr maximum frequency to spread out the limited budget to cover as much of the network as possible. Have also been told it's highly unlikely that all contracts will be filled as there just simply isn't the budget available to fund these wide ranging cuts. Still find it hard to believe how a city the size of Sheffield (600k) still can't fund more of a commercial network. Apparently the latest figures show 71% of the SY Bus Market will be tendered after 19:00 Mon-Sat and all day Sundays from October. Quite a staggering and alarming figure! Who gets to decide what people "require"? I suspect nobody has actually asked the people who use the buses what they require. If they did they would be told they require a much more frequent evening service than they currently get, let alone a worse one. |
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Post by bususer on Oct 18, 2023 15:47:35 GMT
Thank you. I understand that, what I am thinking is, how many passengers per return trip justify a commercial service? No operator is going to turn down funding if it is offered, even if they have a full decker. How do they justify how much funding they need, and if passenger numbers increase, during the contract, how is that policed to ensure funding remains needed? I find it very hard to understand how the X1 for example does not cover it's own running costs in the daytime on a Sunday. Yet it is potentially being cut to 2 hourly in the evenings and Sundays to Maltby. I also wonder how an alleged half a billion pounds over five years is not enough to run a decent evening and Sunday network. Maybe I am looking at it in a too simplistic way? As I said in earlier I sat on 81 Armthorpe last Saturday evening 69461 full with a few standing yet this will be reduced to one an hour in October, if buses cannot make money from full buses they have a serious business model problem, the issue probably is most people have pre-bought tickets so even if it is full many may not have paid for that trip, if it was still pay on board single fare then I suspect there could be an argument for saying this trip made xx pounds so you don't need a subside but with weekly and monthly tickets the bus companies will just say we make most of out money from pre-bought tickets and that is for the whole of our services. I am old enough to remember the early 90s when many routes had a daytime frequency of 8 per hour or better. Most routes were competitive and often buses ran quite empty. Still operators continued to run them so presumably they were profitable even at that low level of loading. Why is it so different now? |
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