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Post by The Captain on May 3, 2024 10:00:04 GMT
Maybe learn a bit more about these things before treating people like idiots eh?
Regen is not 100% efficient. It is also limited in the amount it can feed back in to the battery. I'd be very surprised if some friction braking wasn't necessary on Steep Hill and Cromford Hill. It will help minimise the impact of the hills certainly, but dragging a heavy bus up steep hills, potentially at speed, will always use more energy than the typical flat urban running they use to calculate range.
Oh dear. |
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Post by The Captain on May 3, 2024 10:24:31 GMT
It seemed to handle the load very well. The MMCs of all sizes and decks are nice buses to ride on. The Enviros on the other hand, are horrid with their rock hard seating. I wouldn't fancy doing Matlock-Barnsley on an Enviro200! Fuel tank capacity is a determining factor in the length of diagram a bus is allocated to. For example, First SY couldn't allocate their Northern Counties Olympians to 12 hour diagrams, as they had lower fuel capacity than most other buses. I have seen 16 year old B9s work 12 hour plus shifts on the 52As and they made it up Walkley Lane umpteen times with no engine overheat etc. A lot of the Stagecoach fleet from 2006-2010 were poorly designed/built and so retired early, such as the ALX300s and the Plaxton Pointers. The one plus side of this Zebra business is that hopefully some Rawmarsh MMCs will be cascaded towards Sheffield & Chesterfield. Well, I had just written a long and detailed reply to this but the forum dumped it with no way to recover... In brief, don't forget Chesterfield are getting a load of EVs at some point, but hopefully will get some E200MMCs for the services that aren't going electric. An E400 holds 275l/60gal of fuel for a range of around 400-600 miles depending on the route. A quick look suggests that a route like the 120 has a 25 mile round trip which at most will be run 7-8 times a day, so a but might even manage two days without refuelling. The X17 however is 80 miles from Matlock to Barnsley and back, although at most 4 round trip equivalents seem to be run. The Enviro400EV claims 385 miles range, so still just OK for the X17, depending how much impact the hills on the south part of the route and the higher speed motorway running has. The 59 reg Gold buses apparently aren't ULEZ so will be getting charged for entering the Sheffield CAZ, making it odd that they are still using at least one most days on the X17, yet the newer ones are often seen on the 51 or 54.
I don't know where your mileage figures are from but an E400 is never doing anywhere near 400 miles plus on one tank round here. The Hybrids certainly won't and will croak if left out all day and that's doing 8.5mpg at best, the new MMCs are half that but would just manage a day and a half before running out and we had various Volvo types that ran out of fuel teatime onwards. It's not a new thing, you had small tank Dennis Dominators run dry early evening on a daily basis 30 years and appropriate vehicles deployed on the long boards where possible. Whatever facts and figures people band about regarding what vehicles will or won't do elsewhere you can chuck it all in the bin because none of it is relevant in Sheffield. |
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Post by rothlad on May 3, 2024 14:31:58 GMT
All of the Chesterfield fleet are compliant with the Sheffield clean air zone apart from the remaining MAN E300 and the Solos (and the trident open top, maybe the Volvo as well, but they're not really relevant). Interesting that the government emissions checker website have some down as non-compliant. I only checked a handful, but the Gold 59 reg buses and the open toppers that were recently converted came back as having to pay.
Might it be their data is not current, or just plain wrong?
There's talk at the moment that all current retrofits could potentially become null and void. Worth noting that if so, the costs will increase quite significantly for all operators. First for instance only have the Streetdecks and HEV Streetlites that meet EURO VI standards from new. Majority of vehicles have been retrofitted with Eminoxx. Likewise for Stagecoach with HJS and Baumot. Believe work is currently ongoing with the MCA and RMBC/SCC at the moment. Worth noting that not a charging zone as yet - A630 Fitzwilliam Road (Cottenham Rd - St. Ann's Roundabout) and A633 Broad Street/Rawmarsh Hill (Parkgate Roundabout - Bellows Road) are also areas that have to meet EURO VI standards and in respect of the latter, a max stipulation of 26bph. It's also worth noting that the Sheffield City Council and Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council areas all form part of the clean air zone and charging could be introduced throughout the wider area. |
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Post by The Captain on May 3, 2024 15:26:28 GMT
Interesting that the government emissions checker website have some down as non-compliant. I only checked a handful, but the Gold 59 reg buses and the open toppers that were recently converted came back as having to pay. Might it be their data is not current, or just plain wrong?
There's talk at the moment that all current retrofits could potentially become null and void. Worth noting that if so, the costs will increase quite significantly for all operators. First for instance only have the Streetdecks and HEV Streetlites that meet EURO VI standards from new. Majority of vehicles have been retrofitted with Eminoxx. Likewise for Stagecoach with HJS and Baumot. Believe work is currently ongoing with the MCA and RMBC/SCC at the moment. Worth noting that not a charging zone as yet - A630 Fitzwilliam Road (Cottenham Rd - St. Ann's Roundabout) and A633 Broad Street/Rawmarsh Hill (Parkgate Roundabout - Bellows Road) are also areas that have to meet EURO VI standards and in respect of the latter, a max stipulation of 26bph. It's also worth noting that the Sheffield City Council and Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council areas all form part of the clean air zone and charging could be introduced throughout the wider area.Null and void them, and then what? TMs been getting away with it long enough. |
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Post by duncan on May 3, 2024 15:48:42 GMT
Maybe learn a bit more about these things before treating people like idiots eh?
Regen is not 100% efficient. It is also limited in the amount it can feed back in to the battery. I'd be very surprised if some friction braking wasn't necessary on Steep Hill and Cromford Hill. It will help minimise the impact of the hills certainly, but dragging a heavy bus up steep hills, potentially at speed, will always use more energy than the typical flat urban running they use to calculate range.
I generally find that if the cap fits then there is a reason for it. To keep you happy I will immediately delete my years of PSV engineering experience. |
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Post by crossscythe on May 4, 2024 0:45:57 GMT
If an electric bus runs out of battery, as could plausibly happen with elaborate diversions/logistical errors, will it be a tow job or can it be rejuiced at the road side? If a diesel vehicle runs out of fuel, the engineering man can come in the van and top it up surely.. can't do that with an electric bus.
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Post by markno16 on May 4, 2024 8:21:10 GMT
If an electric bus runs out of battery, as could plausibly happen with elaborate diversions/logistical errors, will it be a tow job or can it be rejuiced at the road side? If a diesel vehicle runs out of fuel, the engineering man can come in the van and top it up surely.. can't do that with an electric bus. That’s what tow trucks are for. Limited incidents of diesel buses being refuelled at the roadside, making it not different to fossil fuel alternatives. As an aside, it would be unusual to send any vehicle that is running low on fuel (rare in itself) off route on a sizeable diversion that could result in it dying at the roadside. |
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Post by TC60054 on May 4, 2024 13:53:51 GMT
If an electric bus runs out of battery, as could plausibly happen with elaborate diversions/logistical errors, will it be a tow job or can it be rejuiced at the road side? If a diesel vehicle runs out of fuel, the engineering man can come in the van and top it up surely.. can't do that with an electric bus. That’s what tow trucks are for. Limited incidents of diesel buses being refuelled at the roadside, making it not different to fossil fuel alternatives. As an aside, it would be unusual to send any vehicle that is running low on fuel (rare in itself) off route on a sizeable diversion that could result in it dying at the roadside. Bus drivers also are smart enough to report a bus that's running low on fuel and probably won't take it if they don't think the bus has enough fuel for the trip it's needed for. |
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Post by ady1977 on May 6, 2024 17:20:09 GMT
what e200s are going down south with the open toppers coming to chesterfield
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Post by The Captain on May 8, 2024 20:57:03 GMT
36997 on decision at Holbrook after a fairly nasty head on collision Saturday service 7.
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Post by crossscythe on May 8, 2024 22:19:30 GMT
36997 on decision at Holbrook after a fairly nasty head on collision Saturday service 7. Hope the driver is ok. |
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Post by teapot42 on May 9, 2024 14:54:04 GMT
I generally find that if the cap fits then there is a reason for it. To keep you happy I will immediately delete my years of PSV engineering experience. If that experience is on electric buses then I'll of course apologise. I was just going on my electronics experience which has exposed me to a lot of details of EV tech including typical design decisions which reduce efficiency in certain scenarios.
As a more general comment if you don't agree with something someone has said then helping them understand by explaining it rather than treating them like a moron would be appreciated. Most of us are happy to learn and would appreciate the benefit of the knowledge from those inside the industry. The way you have replied to most of my recent posts just makes me want to give up on the forum. In another thread you comment on tolerating posters as there are so few active members left - maybe consider that alienating people who have an interest and want to understand better could be part of the reason for that?
I appreciate it can be frustrating if fairly new members don't have the degree of knowledge of the seasoned posters, but aggressive replies aren't going to help fix that knowledge gap.
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Post by teapot42 on May 9, 2024 15:04:01 GMT
I don't know where your mileage figures are from but an E400 is never doing anywhere near 400 miles plus on one tank round here. The Hybrids certainly won't and will croak if left out all day and that's doing 8.5mpg at best, the new MMCs are half that but would just manage a day and a half before running out and we had various Volvo types that ran out of fuel teatime onwards. It's not a new thing, you had small tank Dennis Dominators run dry early evening on a daily basis 30 years and appropriate vehicles deployed on the long boards where possible. Whatever facts and figures people band about regarding what vehicles will or won't do elsewhere you can chuck it all in the bin because none of it is relevant in Sheffield. I did struggle to find much in the way of efficiencies to be honest. The best I could find were a few suggestions that an E200 could get over 10mpg and tried to apply a reasonable guess for E400s as being that high on a good run or around 2/3rds typically.
Do the hybrids have a smaller tank than a standard E400? It's got to be as at 8.5mpg a standard E400 would get 500 miles from the 60 gal tank ADL quote.
In a way though that makes my concerns about how realistic the range quoted for the E400EV would be around Sheffield and on runs like the X17. Even the current diesel E400MMCs must be tight on range for the ones that leave early and get back late.
Thanks for the context by the way, it's good to understand these things are from the outside you see figures quoted and almost have to believe them. I guess also someone not in the industry can't grasp just how much fuel a bus must get through compared to a car.
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Post by crossscythe on May 9, 2024 16:32:33 GMT
Stagecoach having Streetlites reminds me of the time when Yorkshire Terrier acquired Alexander PSs and Metrobuses,as First Mainline had.
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Post by overground on May 9, 2024 22:31:04 GMT
That’s what tow trucks are for. Limited incidents of diesel buses being refuelled at the roadside, making it not different to fossil fuel alternatives. As an aside, it would be unusual to send any vehicle that is running low on fuel (rare in itself) off route on a sizeable diversion that could result in it dying at the roadside. Bus drivers also are smart enough to report a bus that's running low on fuel and probably won't take it if they don't think the bus has enough fuel for the trip it's needed for. Are they? |
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